Religion made me sick!
Sent in by Joshua
Religion literally made me sick. In order to fully understand what I mean by this, it is necessary to go back to before I even became a Christian. I had always been raised in church and taught by my parents to fear God and all. I went to church every Sunday and did everything that a good "Christian" was supposed to do. I even walked the isle as a child to be saved. Well, to make a long story short, I was not "saved" when I was a kid and walked the isle.
When I was a teenager, I went through some trying times and had several illnesses, ultimately culminating in having surgery. This whole time friends of my mother prayed for me and my recovery. I even received a prayer letter from her friends' church. I decided that I should go and visit there. Well, we ended up joining that church and I became very active in the youth group there. Not long after joining this church, I went to an evangelism crusade and, while there, became convinced that I was not really "saved." Now, I got myself really worked up (about had an anxiety attack) and was afraid that I would die and go to hell before I could ask Jesus to save me. So, I became saved and this burden of anxiety was lifted because I knew for sure that I had truly been saved.
Fast forward about a year and a half and I was asked, by my principal, to be in a religious play at his church. It was "Heavens Gates and Hell's Flames." For anyone not familiar with it, the whole point is to scare everyone into accepting Jesus. This is done with the use of actors portraying scenes from everyday life and then they die and either are welcomed into heaven by Jesus or literally dragged to hell by the devil. Now, this would scare even the most devout Christian into making sure that they were "saved." Well, needless to say, it scared the mess out of me.
Now, let me take a brief moment to explain that I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I did not know it at that time. I went through months of obsessively praying the sinners prayer over and over to "make sure" that I was saved. I could think of nothing else. Now, my parents did not take me to a doctor or anything and eventually I learned to cope with this. It sort of worked out of my system and I became assured that I was saved. So, I am going along and everything is fine and I am over all of this. I graduate from high school, go to college, graduate, and get a job. I change jobs and am in a much more stressful environment (school teacher) and eventually the stress gets the better of me and triggers another lapse into OCD. This time I go to the doctor and get into therapy and everything gets better. I am not obsessing about religious matters at this time.
Well, about this time, a friend of mine invites me to go with him (he is Catholic) to his church. So, I go and I like it, so I go more and become a regular. Well, I am upset that even though I am a Christian, I cannot participate in communion, so I decide to convert to Catholicism. So, in September of 2006, I begin to go to catechism classes. Everything is going along fine and I am buying what they are selling hook, line, and sinker. Well, things at my job continue to get more stressful and eventually I decide to resign at the semester break. Now, for those of you who do not know, extreme stress can trigger a lapse with OCD. Well, in January, I am at one of the catechism classes and the instructor asks the question: "How can we know that what we believe is the truth?" Well, ladies and gentlemen, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I answered the question that it is all faith, but this answer did not appease my mind, which continued to explore this question.
I basically "fell off the mountain." What I mean by this is that I began to obsess about this question and the many answers or lack thereof. Clinically, obsessing over religious matters is known as scrupulosity. Even though I was going to the doctor and seeing a therapist, my condition continued to worsen. I fell into an extreme depression and basically had a hard time functioning. All of this was due to my constantly obsessing about whether Jesus really rose from the dead or not and how could we know for sure. Well, after months of therapy and a medicine change, I began to recover and in May, I was about back to normal. I was still a Christian and knew that I believed and the like.
Well, I still had the question about whether the resurrection was true of not and I began to scour the internet looking for answers. I was reading a biography of Benjamin Franklin at the time and the book mentions that Franklin explored Deism in his lifetime. Now, I knew a little about Deist philosophy but not enough so I Googled it and found a ton of information. I ended up on the World Union of Deists site and began to explore the links that were provided. The more I researched, the more that I found out that what I had always believed as a Christian was not true. I discovered the pagan origins of many of the stories attributed to Jesus. I learned that Paul made up a great deal of the New Testament and that the "gospels" were actually written decades after the events were supposed to take place and were written by people who were not eyewitnesses to the events. Now, many Bibles have the words of Jesus in red. If they were not eyewitnesses and the accounts were written many decades later, how do we know that Jesus actually said that? Now, come on. So, I became a deist. I gave up my belief that the Bible was "God's word." When I gave that up and de-converted, it was as if a weight was lifted. Only two of my family members know some of my beliefs and I am not sure that they realize that I am not a Christian anymore. My mother is devout and she said recently that she hoped that I still believed the Bible. She said this after I questioned her over an inconsistency in the Bible.
Now, I know that the Christians who read this will say that I was never really saved. Well, I can assure you that I was at one time but I am not now because I don't believe in the fairy tales anymore. My mind is clear, I do not obsess anymore. I have never been happier or felt as free.
Religion literally made me sick. In order to fully understand what I mean by this, it is necessary to go back to before I even became a Christian. I had always been raised in church and taught by my parents to fear God and all. I went to church every Sunday and did everything that a good "Christian" was supposed to do. I even walked the isle as a child to be saved. Well, to make a long story short, I was not "saved" when I was a kid and walked the isle.
When I was a teenager, I went through some trying times and had several illnesses, ultimately culminating in having surgery. This whole time friends of my mother prayed for me and my recovery. I even received a prayer letter from her friends' church. I decided that I should go and visit there. Well, we ended up joining that church and I became very active in the youth group there. Not long after joining this church, I went to an evangelism crusade and, while there, became convinced that I was not really "saved." Now, I got myself really worked up (about had an anxiety attack) and was afraid that I would die and go to hell before I could ask Jesus to save me. So, I became saved and this burden of anxiety was lifted because I knew for sure that I had truly been saved.
Fast forward about a year and a half and I was asked, by my principal, to be in a religious play at his church. It was "Heavens Gates and Hell's Flames." For anyone not familiar with it, the whole point is to scare everyone into accepting Jesus. This is done with the use of actors portraying scenes from everyday life and then they die and either are welcomed into heaven by Jesus or literally dragged to hell by the devil. Now, this would scare even the most devout Christian into making sure that they were "saved." Well, needless to say, it scared the mess out of me.
Now, let me take a brief moment to explain that I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I did not know it at that time. I went through months of obsessively praying the sinners prayer over and over to "make sure" that I was saved. I could think of nothing else. Now, my parents did not take me to a doctor or anything and eventually I learned to cope with this. It sort of worked out of my system and I became assured that I was saved. So, I am going along and everything is fine and I am over all of this. I graduate from high school, go to college, graduate, and get a job. I change jobs and am in a much more stressful environment (school teacher) and eventually the stress gets the better of me and triggers another lapse into OCD. This time I go to the doctor and get into therapy and everything gets better. I am not obsessing about religious matters at this time.
Well, about this time, a friend of mine invites me to go with him (he is Catholic) to his church. So, I go and I like it, so I go more and become a regular. Well, I am upset that even though I am a Christian, I cannot participate in communion, so I decide to convert to Catholicism. So, in September of 2006, I begin to go to catechism classes. Everything is going along fine and I am buying what they are selling hook, line, and sinker. Well, things at my job continue to get more stressful and eventually I decide to resign at the semester break. Now, for those of you who do not know, extreme stress can trigger a lapse with OCD. Well, in January, I am at one of the catechism classes and the instructor asks the question: "How can we know that what we believe is the truth?" Well, ladies and gentlemen, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I answered the question that it is all faith, but this answer did not appease my mind, which continued to explore this question.
I basically "fell off the mountain." What I mean by this is that I began to obsess about this question and the many answers or lack thereof. Clinically, obsessing over religious matters is known as scrupulosity. Even though I was going to the doctor and seeing a therapist, my condition continued to worsen. I fell into an extreme depression and basically had a hard time functioning. All of this was due to my constantly obsessing about whether Jesus really rose from the dead or not and how could we know for sure. Well, after months of therapy and a medicine change, I began to recover and in May, I was about back to normal. I was still a Christian and knew that I believed and the like.
Well, I still had the question about whether the resurrection was true of not and I began to scour the internet looking for answers. I was reading a biography of Benjamin Franklin at the time and the book mentions that Franklin explored Deism in his lifetime. Now, I knew a little about Deist philosophy but not enough so I Googled it and found a ton of information. I ended up on the World Union of Deists site and began to explore the links that were provided. The more I researched, the more that I found out that what I had always believed as a Christian was not true. I discovered the pagan origins of many of the stories attributed to Jesus. I learned that Paul made up a great deal of the New Testament and that the "gospels" were actually written decades after the events were supposed to take place and were written by people who were not eyewitnesses to the events. Now, many Bibles have the words of Jesus in red. If they were not eyewitnesses and the accounts were written many decades later, how do we know that Jesus actually said that? Now, come on. So, I became a deist. I gave up my belief that the Bible was "God's word." When I gave that up and de-converted, it was as if a weight was lifted. Only two of my family members know some of my beliefs and I am not sure that they realize that I am not a Christian anymore. My mother is devout and she said recently that she hoped that I still believed the Bible. She said this after I questioned her over an inconsistency in the Bible.
Now, I know that the Christians who read this will say that I was never really saved. Well, I can assure you that I was at one time but I am not now because I don't believe in the fairy tales anymore. My mind is clear, I do not obsess anymore. I have never been happier or felt as free.
Comments
And btw, Anonymous, I'm sure you mean well, but the entire idea of "the devil" is a scare tactic dreamed up by "devout" early Christians in order to frighten people into thinking as they do. And the entire concept that "God" would allow this "devil" to torture any human being "forever" is probably the cruelest doctrine ever conceived. You're not helping anyone by pushing it on people; you're hurting.
Don't listen to anonymouse! Christians use the excuse of the devil to mask the fact the christianity make no sense, and that we can figure that out for ourselves. My son asked if there is a religion where god is not involved in World affairs, and I said Deism. Now he calls himself a Deist. My beliefs are those of Pantheism.
Good Luck!
Agreed. Wouldn't it be great if christians could admit "we just don't know" instead of proclaiming whatever they've been indoctrinated into believing as the Truth™ that must be believed by all?
Some of the 'feelings' that Christians proclaim to have as their proof that the Holy Spirit dwells within them duplicates some of the same feelings that people get when experimenting with certain drugs.
So far, I've not heard of, or read about, any solid proof in a Christian Diety. From reading Ms. Tarico's book, it appears that a lot of what is mentioned in the Bible has been drawn from other, older religions or societies. I can't believe I'm an old as I am now and am just now starting to try to do some investigation on this subject for myself.
I know the feeling that you can get in the pit of your stomach while listening to some minister go on and on with 'his' interpretation of what being a 'true believer' is, or is not.
The scare tactics that are used in churches would be considered child abuse in certain settings in the USA today. I wonder how the 'church' can get away with some of the 'burn in hell' stories they tell little children today in church? They ought to be ashamed.
I guess if they can't get to you with the other fallacies they spread, they try to scare you into the 'fold'.
Jason, good luck with your new life. I know it will be difficult, but as Fox Mulder says, "The truth is out there."
As for demons and the devil...well, I think they exist. They're the Christians who come over here to threaten us with eternal damnation.
Yeah, and one of them is named, "Dan Marvin".
Anonymous is one such example...full of superstition and non-sequiturious talk...
blah blah gibber gibber, the devil is full of trickery dribble dribble gibber blah blah
prove it you fucken moron
"The devil is cunning and can do many tricks to turn you away from God. The biggest trick the devil ever played on the world was convincing the world he (or God) didn't exist."
Congratulations Anonymous, you have just given glory to Satan, and you don't even realize it. Look at what all you have said about how good Satan is at winning people and tricking them. In your own words you have just said that "Satan is more powerful than God is".
I have said it on this site many times, and here is the words right out of the mouth of a christian.
Another christian has given more credit to Satan than he has to his own God.
Apparently Satan has more effective methods of getting our attention, and God can't seem to get our attention. Seems God is not a very good communicator according to Anonymous.
A fiends church I attended was asking for Tithers to tell the congrgation of their blessings. If you did not give 10%, you were not welcome to share you personal experience with God.
Also, I will say that some of the most devout people I know have the worst things happen to them.
Some of the most tragic stories I've seen have come from the Most devout christians and good people. are these people Modern Day Job's?
Speaking of which, Job doesn't make sense, isn't the story the Devil telling God to test his faith and God listens and make this guys life a living hell? Is that God like? Not just in behavior but in listening to the devil in the first place!
WOW!
I'm a Christian and you're right religion is sick, even Paul said that. Repent and trust in Christ alone. Don't add anything or it will still become religion and religion truly doth suck. Blessings to you
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Hey RDSW,
Okay, I'll make you a deal then.
You send your "Christ" directly to my house to meet with me, so I can have him answer a few thousand questions I have for him, and I'll be overjoyed to start a 'relationship' with him.
Until then, there are only two possible means YOU have to know this christ character.
1. Through the errant/flawed/outdated and ancient bible book.
2. Through little voices in your head or rumblings in your bowels.
I would also suggest that you formed certain beliefs for yourself about who this christ is and what he wants from your life and what rules he has for you to live by?
Given that, plus that you haven't shown any proof of this christ to us, I would say that while you may be a loner in your own personal brand of faith towards this christ, what you have is still RELIGION and nothing short of it.
ATF (who once again has noticed yet another xtian with the perfect truth to tell us of)
Yeah, and no matter how hurt you got, it is never God's fault according to a xtian. It doesn't matter how much pain you went through it is never God's fault, it was either our fault or they blame it on the devil.
This accusing the human race of being at fault goes all the way back to "The Garden of Eden". God showed his irresponsibility even back then, and he is still showing his irresponsibility today. Most xtians who defend God do it only out of their own personal fear of the big bully. Because in a xtian's mind if they don't defend their God then he might just cast them into hell fire.
Any God or living thing that requires such type of loyality through means of manipulation such as the threats of hell and damnation is a pathetic individual who is not worth following. If God only knows how to win people over through his threats of hell, then he is truly pathetic.
I'll just say this to all xtians who continue to defend God and take up for him when he does wrong. Since you are all so hell bent on defending your God at all costs, then I think all of you xtians should have to pay for your God's crimes against humanity. You should all be held responsible for the "Evil Doer" and "Criminal" that all of you serve known as God.
I think "YOU" christians should all be severely punished for the evil deeds that your god has committed against mankind, and anytime you xtians start defending your God, then you should all be beaten and tortured for the actions of your evil God.
If you want to defend your xtian God, then you should have to suffer for him, because any xtian who defends God is pretty much defending a known criminal and killer. It would be interesting to know how many "TRUE" christians there are here in "America" who would be willing to face a severe physical beating along with mental and physical torture just to defend their God.
I would say 90 percent of you American Xtians would be too chicken shit to do so. Instead you would rather just hide behind your church walls and quote scripture with your mouths, like the cowards all of you Christians are.
American Christians are pussies.
For xtians who like to brag and claim that your god has blessed you so much, and for you xtians who do it by rubbing it in the faces of everyone else who has been hurt by your God, I just hope that the day comes when you arrogant S.O.B's lose everything.
God is no respecter of persons according to the bible that you follow, so therefore all christians should be blessed equally, and nobody should be left out of any of God's blessings period.
The bible says one thing, however your God's actions prove different.
No matter what you and other christians may claim "Christianity" is still a religion, and it will always be nothing but a religion.
Christianity "is not" a relationship, because you cannot have a relationship with a dead man who does not exist in a physical living form.
You quoted Paul I noticed. I thought you guys are supposed to only listen to what "Jesus" says, not Paul. The bible teaches not to put your faith in man, but God alone.
Oh wait! You say that God inspired Paul to say that? Ok, how do you know? Did you exist back during that time period? That's what I thought, you're just another ignorant and naive christian.
As far as "Paul" of the bible is concerned, he was the biggest loser who ever existed. Paul was nothing more than an arrogant woman hater. Paul is a fine example of why women have been mistreated so much over the years. If anyone deserved to go to hell, it was "The Apostle Paul".
Religion-does-suck said: "Repent and trust in Christ alone."
I'm going to do whatever the hell I want to, so fuck you and Jesus both so what do you have to say to that?
Why don't you make me repent and trust in Christ alone? You christians sure are good at shouting orders to others. However, you're all just a bunch of talk.
I also hope the day comes when xtians start passing judgment on others and harassing others with their constant preaching that they end up getting arrested and thrown into prison, and everything they own gets confiscated.
I would love to see American xtians face some real hardships and persecution. Someone needs to shut them up.
Take away their precious assets like their luxury mobiles, technology, homes, or send their family members to prison, and see how long it takes them to reject Christ.
I guarantee most American Xtians would reject Christ in a heartbeat if it came down to choosing between their family members or their precious posessions.
God is truly dead.
Jon
www.antichurch.org.uk - Add a Church to the Hall of Shame!
Even though she died here on Earth 14 years ago, in reality she is still alive according to "The Bible", plus she was a christian.
So even though she is no longer present on this Earth, I still have a relationship with my girlfriend. Yes, just like Jesus I still have a personal relationship with my girlfriend who died 14 years ago.
We have now been together for 17 years total now. Just the other day I was talking to my dead girlfriend and we decided to go see a movie. Yes, I bought two tickets and even though the seat in the movie theatre next to me was empty, she was still there sitting right next to me and we were cuddling.
Even though I could not feel her physically, I could see and touch her sitting next to me, and I did it all by simply faith.
Even though "Reality" would tell me that my girlfriend is no longer here, and that I cannot have a relationship with her, "Faith" tells me different, because by "Faith" I am still able to have a relationship with someone who is no longer here in physical form.
Don't ya just love the logic behind the christian belief system when it comes to having a relationship with a person who is died years ago, and who is no longer here in physical form?
Paul was a bastard Jew (no offense to my Jewish friends) who hijacked the small reform movement by Jesus and Peter, etc. and turned it into what it is today. Don't quote Paul to me because I am not interested in his BS. Nothing that Paul stated can be verified by other parts of the Bible, Old or New Testament. Xtians talk about following Jesus but it is really Paul that they are following. It is all bullshit and I am tired of being bothered by it.
Oh, and by the way, I am not an Atheist, I am a Deist. I believe in a First Cause. So, Xtians please do not preach to me to repent and turn to Jesus because Jesus, if he ever existed, is DEAD, DEAD,DEAD.
Thanks for the replies,
Josh
I'm sure the reason why Paul was thrown into prison was the same reason why "The ATF" came after David Koresh down in Waco.
Anonymous, that is some of the most ignorant claptrap I've heard in a long time. You know absolutely nothing about science, probability, or logic; that much is clear already. In case that is not starkly evident to everyone (except, perhaps, the anonymous poster herself), this will settle it: Anonymous, please explain where the number 1,700,000,000 came from in your "calculation" of the odds that there would be even one world that can support life. I'd be shocked if you could even name a few of the (hundreds of) relevant factors to consider.
Your bluff has been called. Bye bye.
( if it doesnt work please dont yell at me)
Where in the hell did you compute that? Do you know what the odds are of Earth being exactly where it is and the odds of life evolving in just the way it did and the odds of you posting on this site in 2008?
The odds of all those things happening are 100%!
Yes, that's right. The odds of all those things happening in just the right order at just the right time are 100%.
Think about it, kid. We're here, so the odds of us being here are 100%.
Your backwards math is retarded.
You just got an "F" in science, kid. The sun's surface temperature has a range of 500 degrees C (approximately 5500C to 6000C).
So, using your logic, there is no life on Earth.
Oh, and "entropy" does not apply to Earth. We are not a closed system; nor are we isolated. The second law of thermodynamics is not relevant here.
And look up diffusion, while you're at it. Gases don't tend to concentrate in one area; they spread to areas of lower concentration.
You would be well advised to open some real science books instead of quoting pseudo-facts swiped from some Christian apologetics site. Your brain will thank you one day.
Thank you, anon-bot, for setting us all straight with Creationist "science."
A "slight warming", is it? Listen kid, where I live, I see middle-aged people, to the elderly, walking around with various pieces of their face missing, due to various forms of skin cancer...not-to-mention, the tens of thousands of people who die from malignant melanoma, annually.
The observation I'm making, is that a fricking skink - which is a homely little reptile with a brain, oh, roughly the size of a piece of cous cous - is better equipped to handle the sun's radiation, than humankind, whom, BTW, are presumably "God's" crowning jewel..i.e..the individuals for whom the entire universe is presumably centered around. Yeah, uh huh.
Check yourself, kid....."get out" while you're still young.
Welcome to sanity, and the escape from religion. I enjoy coming on this site, and reading Christian comments, because they seem to really make the case, for how religion makes people mentally sick, like anonymous. Peace
Anony, I see the sun mentioned, the earth, temperature, solar wind, but... wait, this shopping list doesn't have any supernatural items on it. Where are the supernatural (beyond nature) facts, to support a supernatural god?
Oh, well. I was all hopeful, and all. Hey, anony, what's a type four factor on the Bristol Scale support for your God, since we are using natural facts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale
WTF???
Please, please, please get out of there before creationist anti-science turns your cerebral cortex to oatmeal.
Not so. The planetary orbits are only approximately co-planar, with Pluto (until recently deemed a plant) quite substantially out of the (approximate) plane of the others.
No-name: "if even one planets orbit crossed another then it would through our hole galaxy into chaos killed all life."
That is complete BS. Where did you get that from?
No-name: "if the sun had a change in only 50 degrees than life could not exist."
What does it mean for the sun to "change" by 50 degrees? Do you mean seconds of arc as seen from Earth, perhaps? Do you mean "holding all else fixed"? It sounds to me like you have no idea what you're talking about.
No-name: "...as some of you may know amino acids can be formed by them selves but the simplest cell has about 500 and the odds that only one of those amino acids forming is...[insert more BS]"
I don't know who you think you're fooling. Nothing you've said is even meaningful let alone accurate. And let me emphasize yet again that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's not even worth pointing out that you are making naive statistical assumptions (e.g. independence) because I'm sure you are just parroting something you've been told.
What a joke.
I have a challenge for you. Tell me ONE scientific fact, or statistical concept, or aspect of mathematical or even Aristotelian logic that you understand well enough to explain accurately and answer some questions about.
Once again... Nobody is buying your nonsense. Bluff called.
Have it your way - and by that logic - we can safely assume that the "Creator of the Universe" is much "m ore complex" than the "skyscraper" is, as well as what "we" are... put together.
So?...where is the "architect" who designed, and created, the "Creator"?
If you posit that this "Creator" is self-existing, then, again, by that logic we can simply say that Nature is self-existing, in one form, or another.
"Facts"? All you've been doing is blathering pseudo-scientific nonsense.
No-name: "how bout YOU go do some research on what i am saying without a bias. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP."
Do I need to say this again? All your so-called "facts" are complete BS. Your numbers are BS. Your "reasoning" is BS. You're not fooling anybody.
No-name: "...these are all things ive looked into and not from some stupid site like wikipedia."
Then CITE YOUR SOURCES! (This should be interesting.)
No-name: "every one says im making stupid postulates and making stuff up."
I don't say that! I think you get this nonsense from creationist web sites or brochures, or maybe from a pastor or a radio talk show. You CERTAINLY didn't get it from any self-respecting scientist or mathematician. It never ceases to amaze me how scientifically illiterate folks think that all they need to do is throw some numbers and "amazing facts" around and it will look like science.
Well, I have news for you. You have no idea what you're talking about, and neither do the supposed sources you got it from. You have absolutely no idea how transparent you are. It's comical.
No-name: "evolutionists faked thier 'evidence' with embryonic development."
I presume you are referring to Ernst Haeckel, right? Do you know anything about his work or how it is regarded today? Do you know anything about other similar theories? Do you know who von Bauer is? No, of course you don't. You only know what you've read in creationist propaganda, right?
Where did your big numbers come from? I want to see the calculation. I can absolutely guarantee you that they are the product of someone who is as scientifically illiterate as you are.
You're not fooling anyone.
I don't hate Christianity. I hate willful ignorance. I'm disgusted by people who pretend to know things they do not. I find it revolting when people try to bluff their way through discussions, and then start blaming others when their charade is exposed. Finally, I find it really sad when people do not even realize how completely ignorant they are.
God or Jesus you dont learn anything except how to read and write. They felt all literature was satanic at best and the writers were doomed to hellfires for using their imaginations.
Of course a lot of it is who is present at fundamentalist events or schools. There were a couple kids left back who were ridiculous bullies. The teachers never intervened and in fact seemed absent. The fundamentalist can turn anything or its head as well. They can rape you and then say that it wasnt them it was Satan and you shouldnt hold it against them etc. I know there is a lot of anger against these fundamentalists particularly if they have perpetuated something on you. I know some of the fundies or others would say get over it, maybe like some Christian missionaries who wiped out the Indian tribes and then said no biggie we were just doing the Lords work. I certainly wouldnt call myself an atheist however as the world (oceans, land masses, space, etc is too great to not thing there is at least a great creative force but as far as these bible thumpers, they seem to ruin the planet wherever they put their sordid carcasses.