Free at last...

Sent in by Jason

From the first day I was able to be away from home as a newborn child, I attended church. My parents are Christians, and my mother’s parents are Christians and they believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. The vast majority of friends I ever had up until college were other kids that went to church with me.

Growing up, we were taught that it was best to marry another Christian, so I did. Though we both lived pretty loosely at the time of our initial meeting, my wife and I never lost hold of the faith and traditions instilled within us. Upon marrying, my wife and I both made concerted efforts to try to live a more godly life and seemed to succeed at doing so.

We have had four children (the oldest being nearly 9 years old) and have raised them the same way we were, attending church, and obeying the rules and regulations set forth by the infallible Bible give to us by the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. As we were likewise taught, we have warned our children of disobedience to us, and by extension God, as well as the eternal consequences of sinful decisions. Then something happened.

A few years ago, my wife’s brother (who at the time was struggling with his own faith as he was unable to defend it from seemingly easy questions about the inerrancy of the Bible and the nature of God) introduced me to a document I believe he had found online. If you were to visualize a lifetime of Christian beliefs as a tall, elaborate house of cards, this document was the equivalent of someone lightly bumping into the table upon which it stands. The cards didn’t come tumbling down, but the whole thing shook precariously for a bit. This document was a thorough study on many other Christ-like deities and respective belief systems including many that predated Christianity, which shared many of the same properties like a messiah-like figure miraculously conceived, of virgin birth, who was crucified, and raised from the dead (to name only a few). At that moment, I felt a profound sense of doubt about my beliefs, which unfortunately, I immediately sublimated due to the possible ramifications of losing my faith that quickly ran through my head. I thought that if I were to un-convert, my life would be inexorable changed, my physical family would disown me up to and including being written out of the will and my spiritual family would sever contact and friendly communications with me.

So, like a sheep I continued plotting the course with which I had been indoctrinated my entire life. Then within the past year, as my wife and I would sit and listen to Bible class stories and teachings, she would point out scripture to me that was never taught because it was either clearly contradictory or difficult to explain. Over the months we began to look more into the discrepancies and tyrannical nature of the Old Testament God of the Bible and were scared with what we found. The more we investigated the more unsettling it became. To truly understand how unsettling it was, you have to realize that both my wife and I could name all of the books of the Old & New Testament by the age of five. We could quote book, chapter, and verse for most of our beliefs as adolescents. We were taught (cynically) about other religions and how to answer their questions. We attended lectures, gospel meetings, and special services just to bolster the knowledge of our faith.

But what most people within a religion do not realize is that they have been taught to think from within a sphere of existing predefined conclusions. If God can never contradict Himself, then whatever logical gymnastics you perform within the constraints of that sphere to explain a contradiction will be just fine as long as the conclusion will never be that He had been contradictory. This explains the ridiculous Christian explanations you may hear or read about while studying to break free from a Christian faith. Unfortunately, this means that a believer who has been thus affected and controlled will never leave the tenacious grip of a religious belief system. Once someone seeking the honest truth will remove those constraints on free thought, it is very easy to debunk the myth of the Bible being an inerrant, God-breathed ancient book containing everything man needs to live and be acceptable in His sight.

With the help of some early doubts and especially my wife, we very recently took off the blinders. When faced with the choice to take the blue or red pill, we took the red one to see how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Despite the liberating feeling of being utterly convinced we are doing the right thing, we still have to deal with the familial and social ramifications of this radical change in our lives. One can’t live ingrained in a conservative, Bible-Belt Christian society and not have exit wounds while extricating themselves from the mess. Even my boss is a member of the church we used to attend, so we still have many things to overcome. Still, I can tell you this: Neither, I, or my wife, or any of my children will ever life their lives in fear of a tyrannical, immature, jealous, vindictive master of the universe that watches our every move and is ready to condemn us to eternal torment for lack of obedience. My family and I will strongly challenge any religious ideas brought to us by tradition, ascribed authority, or revelation.

Free at last. Free at last.

253 comments:

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Dan Marvin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dan Marvin said...

If your 'god' cared for his people 'he' would have stopped her from being raped.

"Yes, God recognizes pain. He knows it well since He came and died on the cross for us and suffered great pain on our behalf that we might be able to be free from the bondage of sin.

I am married and I have thought about what I would do if my wife were raped and she got pregnant. First of all, I would insist that the child become legally mine. I would love my wife and that child and consider the child as my own. I would raise that child with all the love I would give my own natural children. Why? Because it isn't the child's fault that my wife was raped. The child doesn't know the why's and how's. The child only knows that he/she needs to be loved and be safe in the arms of loving parents. Why should I make the child pay for the sins of another? Why should I make the child any less important or loved than my natural children?

Even though the child's arrival would be by pain and anguish (in more ways than one), I would extend the same love to that child as the Lord has extended it to me. He owes me nothing and has graciously saved me from my sins so that I can dwell with Him. Should I not do the same for others -- especially the innocent children?

The Bible (in Psalms) talks about injustice here on earth. The Psalmist asks God why the wicked prosper and the righteous suffer. God answers and says that in this life, the wicked may succeed, but their end is destruction. He tells us to be patient. It will all turn out right in the end, on Judgment Day. In the meantime, God is gracious, even to the wicked. He lets them live, enjoy families, health, etc. But, during their lives they are told the gospel many times so that they might repent of their sins and come to faith in Christ -- something we all need. Should they not repent, they will be damned. So, God is gracious to them letting them live in hopes of their conversion. Sometimes, however, He allows them to be punished by going to jail. Either way, they will get what is coming to them.

I wish I could give Mandy words of great comfort. The best I can do is tell you that Jesus is real and that He can comfort you in ways I never could. He can cleanse your heart and fill you with His love that will spill over to your child. All you need to do is trust Him as God, as the one who cleanses from sin. Throw yourself at Him. Give Him your heart, your anger, your helplessness, your questions, and trust Him. I know it is hard. But it is right."(carm)

Jim: "There is still a great deal of debate over the significance of the scrolls."

Because of presuppositions again, They existed and proved the validity of the Bible.

Jim:"Most of us here have already demonstrated the capacity to examine and change deeply-held presuppositions."

Well Jim I hope and pray that is the case and you all are not so hard of hearts that when God calls out to all of you that you do actually answer back in recognition of His Glory.

Dan Marvin said...

It is unfortunate that this woman was raped and became pregnant. Many people at this point would simply move to kill the child in them. But this only compounds the problem by adding killing to the rape. When an egg and sperm unite, life is continued, not created. Both the egg and sperm are already alive. Their union simply completes their purpose and the result is a new human life; after all, the fertilized egg is alive and its nature is human. Therefore, it is a human life. This new life is irrespective of whether it was produced through rape or a loving union between husband and wife. The life in the womb simply needs the same love as any other new baby would.

Of course, it is easy to write encouraging a woman impregnated by rape to keep her baby and raise the child all the while incurring financial, emotional, and physical difficulties. I wouldn't be the one going through the difficulties. That's true, but regardless of that fact, the truth is that killing a child in the womb because of rape is just as wrong as the rape. Besides, isn't the cost of having and loving children that difficulties arise? Of course. But these difficulties do not negate the fact that the new life deserves love and comfort and has the right to live. It is wrong to simply kill the child because it was conceived by rape. It isn't the child's fault. (carm)

Just look in the mirror Mandy and see what a glorious and difficult decision that your mother made. God bless that woman... and He will. Mandy with all due respect can I ask, is your Mom a Christian?

Jim Arvo said...

Dan, would you stop the rape from happening if it was in your power to do so? That is the question; not how you would react after the fact.

I said "There is still a great deal of debate over the significance of the [Dead Sea] scrolls." To which Dan replied "Because of presuppositions again, They existed and proved the validity of the Bible."

Dan, you are comical at times. What would you do without that word "presupposition"? You might need to actually think about what people are saying. Oh, the horror!

You dismiss all current debate over the Dead Sea Scrolls are being due to "presuppositions"? Dan, stop being so lazy and learn something about the Dead Sea Scrolls. From your comments thus far I'd wager you know next-to-nothing about them. It's easy to toss out that word "presupposition"--not so easy to actually do some research and think things through.

Dan says he hopes that we "are not so hard of hearts that when God calls out to all of you that you do actually answer back in recognition of His Glory."

I'll return the warm sentiment. Dan, I hope that you are rational enough to actually allow yourself to entertain some doubts one day, and industrious enough to actually follow them up. There's a whole world of reality out there waiting for you, and it's a great place.

Dan Marvin said...

"stop being so lazy"

You're right I am quickly trying to do things so I can move on.

I am so very busy with the RonPaul2008 election. I do suppose I owe you a apology for that one, forgive me.

We did make the news last night. Wanna See?

.:webmaster:. said...

So, from the discussion now, it appears that both atheists and fundamentalist religionists think rape is a bad thing.

The religionist (aka, Dan Marvin), calls rape a sin.

A sin?

Let's see, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, right? So, which of God's laws makes rape a sin? I don't remember that commandment. Perhaps I missed somewhere? And, if rape is a sin, is it always a sin, or is it sometimes sanctioned and approved of?

This, Dan, is why I am pleading with you to provide a concise, cohesive, definition of sin. If sin is transgression of the Law of God, then what is the Law of God?

Is rape wrong only because it is breaking some arbitrary commandment, or is there a commandment (if indeed Dan can find a commandment against rape) because rape is wrong? And does God answer to these "Laws" of HIS? I mean, if God commands rape, even once, is God a sinner? Or if God commands rape, then is refusing to rape a sin?

Dan, what I'm asking is not unreasonable. I just want to understand how you determine a sin from a non-sin.

Is lying a sin? Always? Is killing a sin? Always? Is stealing always a sin? What does it mean to be "unrighteous?"

God's laws are irrelevant, if they are undefinable.

Here's an example of what I read when you post about sin and God's law: You will be punished for all eternity for your snazlepop. Because you have broken the Reepopeep with your snazlepop, you are doomed.

Sounds silly, doesn't it?

Now, how about this: Snazlepop is the breaking of the Reepopeep.

Now do you understand?

Dan, if you are unable to concisely define sin and the Law of God, then your posts are gibberish.

When I was a Christian, sin and law and grace and a whole dictionary of words were bandied about which everyone sort of, kind of, assumed they understood the meaning of. Yet, when anyone is asked to define the words, the only sound in the room was that of crickets.

So, Dan. Enlighten me. When you say sin is the breaking of the Law of God, then please explain what you mean by the "Law of God."

Thanks.

Dan Marvin said...

Webmaster asks: "Is rape a sin?"

Well yes of course it is just look at Deuteronomy 22:25-28

Enjjpt said...

Dan, will you not answer my question?

If god is omnipresent, then he was standing there right beside the rapist. Heck he was standing next to Hitle, Mao, and Stalin too. YOur god was physically there when this girl was being violated.

If your god is omnipotent, he could have stopped this act from taking place, but made the choice not to.

Which means one of two things:
He is willing to stop rape, but unable; therefore not omnipotent.

He is able to stop rape but unwilling; making him evil.

If he is both unable and unwilling, why call him god?

Dan your "god" has had a front row seat to every atrocity ever committed by man, and every natural disaster 'he' has sent. Any rational, caring human being would do everything in their power to stop someone from raping a child if they say it happening. Scientists try and warn others when volcanoes are about to erupt. BUT YOUR GOD DOES NOT DO ANY OF THESE THINGS NOW DOES HE.

Your 'god' is guilty of negilance on a cosmic scale.

Jim Arvo said...

Is there a reason you left off verse 29, Dan?

Dan Marvin said...

Enjjpt: "He is able to stop rape but unwilling; making him evil."

Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

Enjjpt said...

No Dan, suffering is a result of your imiganiary 'god' not following through on his promises to protect the weak and look after his flock.

If you have the power to stop a crime and do nothing, are you not complicit? No answer....

Dan Marvin said...

"Is there a reason you left off verse 29, Dan?"

no, hasty hands made me add 28 I meant to just put Deuteronomy 22:25-27 as the example

Thanks.

.:webmaster:. said...

Oh, so the "Law of God" is all of Deuteronomy? Or is just select parts of Deuteronomy? And if the verses you provided are part of the "Law of God," then rape of betrothed women is a sin punishable by death. Therefore, if the rapist is not put to death, then that would also be a sin, right?

However, if the woman is not betrothed, and the rapist pays off the father with some silver, all is well, right?

So in the second case, rape, when followed up with payment to the girl's father, isn't a sin.

Do I have it right?

Regardless, should I look to all of Deuteronomy to know the "Law of God," or do you have a way for me to distinguish between the relevant and irrelevant parts of the book?

Dan Marvin said...

Webmaster:"Regardless, should I look to all of Deuteronomy to know the "Law of God," or do you have a way for me to distinguish between the relevant and irrelevant parts of the book?"

Yes I do have a way to distinguish things, it's called hermeneutics

Enjjpt said...

Thats funny Dan, I seem to recall a verse or two...

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not"..."The same yesterday, tody, and forever"..."He who keeps all of the commandmetns will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven, he how breaks the commandements and teaches of thers to do so will be called least"...

I dont reacall any verses saying we cna pick and choose what we care to follow, what to leave in or what to leave out.

So the unchanging perfect almighty, does in fact change his mind on whats important and what not. What akes a sin and what is no longer sin.

Do you have to hit the showers after mental gymastics like this Dan?

enjjpt said...

Please forgive my sloppy typing. I am at work doing two things at once.

Dan Marvin said...

Enjjpt,

You would of never said all those things if you understood the definition of hermeneutics. You don't leave anything out it's a matter of understanding and applying for todays times.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Not just for that time but for all times

.:webmaster:. said...

OK, so does that mean I can rape an unbetrothed woman and pay off her father and be guiltless, or not? And does that mean that we must kill a rapist who rapes a betrothed woman or not?

Well?

Oh, and please explain in detail how you arrived at your conclusion. Don't just throw out a religious word. Actually explain how you arrive at your conclusion.

That is, if you can.

If you can't, then just go back to quoting Bible verses and acting all superior. Either way is fine.

boomSLANG said...

D.M: ....it isn't the child's fault that my wife was raped.

But yet, it IS the child's fault that some character from a dusty ol' story book ate some fruit when they were told not to.

Okay, now are you beginning to see the absurdity in "salvation"? Do you see it, yet?

D.M: The child[whose mother was rape] doesn't know the why's and how's. The child only knows that he/she needs to be loved and be safe in the arms of loving parents...

...and of course, when "the child" is a bit older(but not too old to think for themselves), he or she will need to know that he or she was born cursed--guilty of a crime that he or she didn't commit, and that if they don't accept the free gift of salvation, that he or she will be eternally incinerated in hellfire by the all-loving creator of the universe.......you know, the guy who sat by and watched the rape happen to begin with? Yeah, that guy.

You are a sick man.

pdwxm29 said...

Here is a fine example of Dan Marvin's logic.

"2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Apparently Dan, you continue to ignore the fact that "BIBLE SCRIPTURE" is only hear-say, and is not valid evidence.

Just because "THE BIBLE" says it, does not mean it is "A FACT", it is only "Hear-Say". It is an opinion that was produced thousands of years ago, by a group of people who claimed that "God told us to write that down on paper".

It's a shame that the whole human race is still suffering today over what a bunch of superstitious idiots wrote thousands of years ago. These guys are long gone and dead Dan, and people like yourself are still enslaved to superstition.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about "Love" and "Acceptance" it is all about "Fear, Manipulation, and Mind Control". That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Several people on here have exposed it, and it scares you. Once again, that is why you choose to debate on this site. You also fail to acknowledge half of what is presented to you. All you know how to do is quote more bible scripture.

You have already lost the case for "Christ" Dan. You are defeated. You provide no new credible evidence in regards to "The Case for Christ". Instead you do the same old repetitive thing over and over again by quoting a bunch of worthless and irrelevant scripture. You are like a "Kindergarten Kid" who is trying to debate a "College Professor". You are way out of your league Dan Marvin.

You would make a lousy lawyer Dan.

pdwxm29 said...

The fact is people, that Dan Marvin has already been defeated on this site.

His continuous repetitive bible quoting is all he has left, and he still cannot win a debate on this site.

Even if he chooses to stay on this site, and debate, it really doesn't matter, because the fact is that Dan Marvin has been defeated.

It's really sad to see someone like poor Mr. Marvin who continues to stumble and fall flat on his face on this site with his absurdness.

He reminds me of a village idiot. He's like that little joker who performs for his king for the purpose of entertaining and pleasing him.

Dan Marvin is "God's Puppet" and entertainer.

Don't insult my intelligence Dan said...

Dan Marvin's Input:
"Yes, God recognizes pain. He knows it well since He came and died on the cross for us and suffered great pain on our behalf that we might be able to be free from the bondage of sin."

Dan,

Considering that it was "God" who killed himself by having himself crucified, and since it is "God" who was able to transition from life back to death, I pretty much see his death as a "Joke".

A true death is when you stay dead. I guarantee that "Jesus'" so called death was nothing compared to that man who died from cancer.

All God/Jesus did was put himself to sleep for a few days and he woke up.

When someone dies and you never see them again, that is a true death.

This crap about "Jesus" dying on the cross is the most overrated, over blown story that christians have ever used.

I am not impressed by his death, and nobody asked him to die, so therefore, I don't owe Jesus shit.

He should've asked for our permission before he went and put himself to sleep for 3 days before he sent us the bill.

You have a very weak mind Dan. Are you really that stupid?

Mandy said...

From Dan Marvin:
"The difference between us is experience, you cannot claim something by a non-experience. You just have yet to experience God."

How do you claim to know so much about my life Dan? You don't know who I am.

You're right. I have never experienced "YOUR GOD", even though I accepted him into my heart many years ago. Not my fault that he refused to come in, so don't blame me for that. Your God is the one who chose to ignore me. I did not ignore him.

I begged him and begged him at my worst moments and he never did anything to comfort me. You only make excuses for your God is does nothing.

I am so sick and tired of some arrogant christian like you who continues to talk down to others on this website.

You keep on covering up for "Your God's" wrong doings Dan. You keep on making excuses for him.

Your God is evil. Plain and simple, and until he shows me different I will not listen to what you say.

When you say that you are here to win people over, you know that will never happen. You are not here to win anyone over Dan. You are a bald faced liar just like your God is.

Please do not say anymore about what happened to my mom. Your words mean nothing to me.

Do us all a favor Dan, and go over to the middle east and preach "The So called good news of Jesus Christ" to the muslims over there and see what happens to you when you do.

I'm sure you would never be willing to do that.

Phant (Christian Hater) said...

Hey Dan, shut the fuck up asshole!

Yeah, go over to the middle east, and martyr yourself for Jesus, and leave us the fuck alone shit head.

Brian said...

From Dan Marvin to Mandy:
"The difference between us is experience, you cannot claim something by a non-experience. You just have yet to experience God."

Ok Dan, since you keep telling others on here that they have never expierenced God, let's look at some basics on how to be saved.

Let's start here:

<<<< ROMANS 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made to salvation."

Romans 10:12 "For WHOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Sample prayer:

"Dear God,

I come to you confessing that I am a sinner, completely lost and without hope. I repent of my sinful ways and ask for Your forgiveness. I believe in my heart that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, that He completely paid for all of my sins by His death on the cross, and that You raised Him from the dead. I confess that Jesus is my Savior and Lord. I trust in Him, and Him alone, for my salvation. I believe that through His shed blood I have eternal life. I will pray, study, meditate and live by Your Word the rest of my life. Father, I ask that You fill me with the Holy Spirit. Please come into my heart and save and sanctify my soul. I love you, Lord, and offer myself to You completely and without reservation. In the precious name of Jesus I pray. Amen." >>>>>>

Ok Dan,

Now that is exactly what I did years ago myself, however I walked away from the faith, and like many other people on this site, I no longer believe in christianity, and I am now an atheist.

So tell me Dan. I did exactly what the bible said to do, and I prayed a very similar "Sinners Prayer" like the one above.

Why did Jesus never honor my request and come into my heart to remain forever?

Why have I never expirenced God? I did what he asked me to do?

Please explain why this bible scripture failed.

You can lose your salvation said...

The fact is that there is no such thing as "Once Saved, always Saved".

Yes, you can be a christian and by free will walk away from the faith one day.

I would like to challenge Dan Marvin to come onto this site and back up his claim about "Once Saved Always Saved".

In all fairness Dan, you need to read everything that is on this site. I believe you will see that it is possible to become an "Ex-Christian" after you read it.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/cat1c.htm

Dan Marvin said...

"however I walked away from the faith"

"however I walked away from the faith"

"however I walked away from the faith"

In my humble opinion: You broke the covenant with God, being omniscient He knew this and did not forgive you yet. He is waiting for that one moment when you never look back like Lots wife and thrust yourself forward into His salvation.

"Please explain why this bible scripture failed."

Scripture didn't...you did when you turned your back on God. This is just my observation there is no proof of it and God could have an entirely different reason, maybe He sees something that we cannot.

Dan Marvin said...

"I would like to challenge Dan Marvin to come onto this site and back up his claim about "Once Saved Always Saved"."

I already did:

If you can lose your salvation, then what do you do with John 10:28 where Jesus says he gives eternal life and the sheep will NEVER perish? If you can lose it then Jesus should have said, "and they may perish..." or "they CAN perish." But he said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. So, will they never perish? Or can they?

A true Christian cannot turn away from God. Here is why. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Now look at 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." THEY WOULD HAVE REMAINED if they were really Christians to begin with.

Now a question for you. Are you saying that the Spirit begins the work of salvation in us and that we work it out and complete it by remaining faithful? That IS what you are saying, that we get saved and keep it by the effort of our works, right? Check this out. Galatians 3:1-3 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

Jesus taught it. He said those with eternal life will NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. " Well, will they perish or not? Jesus says those with eternal life will NEVER perish. I believe Him. Do you?

It isn't too late you are not all throw aways from God. Repent today and Trust! in Jesus and you WILL have everlasting life. You are not ex Christians you are all stony ground hearer or false converts. It isn't too late!

Kenneth said...

Dear Dan,

I too have also read your claims, and I am quiet familiar with the verses you have just shared.

I take it that you are a "Southern Baptist", because this "Once Saved Always Saved" philosophy is very popular among the "Southern Baptist" denomination.

Tell me Dan, how can you ignore this scripture?

HEBREWS 6:4-9: "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to re­pentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that ac­company salvation, though we are speaking in this way (NASB)

Tell me Dan, how can you deny what this passage says?

You sure are quick to judge others on here who do not believe "Exactly" what you believe. What makes you think that I am not a christian Dan?

It seem anytime someone rebukes you with scripture, you get on the offense and start telling everyone that they need to repent.

No, you dear sir need to stop spreading Satan's greatest lie about how "Once You're Saved You're Always Saved".

It's people like you Dan Marvin who are going to cause others to stumble and end up in hell, by spreading and teaching false doctrine.

The "Once Saved, Always Saved" theory is going to send more people to hell than anything else.

You, Dan Marvin, have bought into Satan's greatest lie, and weapon against the christian faith.

Brian said...

Dan Marvin's quote to another poster:

<<<<< Jesus taught it. He said those with eternal life will NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. " Well, will they perish or not? Jesus says those with eternal life will NEVER perish. I believe Him. Do you? >>>>

Dan Marvin's reply to me (Brian):

<<<< In my humble opinion: You broke the covenant with God, being omniscient He knew this and did not forgive you yet. He is waiting for that one moment when you never look back like Lots wife and thrust yourself forward into His salvation. >>>>

That's right Dan. In "Your" humble opinion only, not God's. Thanks for admitting to all of us that you do not know the mind of God. Just like every other christian, you second guess God based on scripture. You make guesses and judgements based on what little information that you know. I was a christian at one time, and that is a "fact". I don't care what you say. I know the truth about who I was at one time.

You probably just admitted more truth on here than you have ever admitted Dan. All of your teachings and posts are based only on "Your" opinions, not the words of God, and just to remind you "The Bible" is also a book of opinions from men who thought they knew the mind of God. These men were exactly like you Dan. They thought they knew the mind of God, and they thought God was telling them to write a book about him, when it was the minds of these same men all along. God didn't inspire them to do anything. The bible is not the word of God. You cannot use the bible itself to validate it's claim. You have to use an outside source to validate it's claim, and the "Dead Sea Scrolls" are also "Hear-Say" evidence. God has never revealed himself in physical, or audio form to anyone, so therefore he has not done anything to prove his existence at all.

From my original Post to Dan:
"Please explain why this bible scripture failed."

Dan's reply to me:
<<<< Scripture didn't...you did when you turned your back on God. This is just my observation there is no proof of it and God could have an entirely different reason, maybe He sees something that we cannot. >>>>

See, there you go again Dan, second guessing the mind of God. Are you ready to give up your debate yet pal? You are really making a fool out of yourself. You say one thing, and then you contradict yourself again later. You talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Since you are using the bible as your defense, all of us should expect you to contradict yourself sooner or later. It only makes sense for you to contradict yourself since the bible is full of contradictions anyway.

However, by man's own free will he can turn his back on God. I agree with Kenneth.

Remember Dan, God will not interfere with man's own free will, so therefore anyone can turn his back on god and reject him.

I bet this scares you deep down inside to know that you may just be wrong. Underneath all of that egotistical self-righteous attitude of yours, you are starting to tremble with fear that you might be wrong after all.

You will never admit it however, because in your little pathetic mind, you would be letting down your "Jesus" by admitting that you are wrong. You would fall on your knees and cry like the baby that you are if that were to happen.

As far as all of what you are saying to us is falling on deaf ears, the reason why we do not hear you, is because you offer nothing that is worth listening to.

For Example:

DAN MARVIN SAYS: "Let's see what the bible has to say about this"

DAN MARVIN SAYS: "Let's see what the bible has to say about that".

DAN MARVIN SAYS: "It's not too late, repent".

DAN MARVIN SAYS: "It's not too late, trust in Jesus alone".

Dan, you are getting struck down on this site by people like Webmaster and Boomslang. These guys are pros at defeating and striking down the christian argument. You are an amateur, and you don't have a literal, "Prayer" of striking down anyone's argument on this site.

So far Jesus has not done anything to prove your case. It's just poor little old Dan Marvin who has been left down here with a 2,000 year old book with no help or assistance from God or Jesus himself.

God does not give a damn about you Dan. So keep on humiliating yourself for Jesus, and keep on scoring those brownie points for him.

In the end when your time is up on this planet, you are just going to end up like the rest of us. A dead, and cold corpse in the ground that once had a life in it that was wasted on some imaginary sky daddy.

Dan Marvin said...

"The issue in this passage (Hebrews 6:4-9) is not whether God forgives the repentant person, but whether there is any way to bring a mature Christian (see Paul's comments in Hebrews 5:12-6:3) back to repentance if he totally rejects Christ (Hebrews 6:6). Paul's answer is, "No, they are like land which is only good for burning" (Hebrews 6:8). Here Paul's central teaching is that, in theory, even mature Christians can fall away and so harden themselves against God that nothing will turn them back from hell.

If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him like a son"(Graham Pockett)

I have said in the past:

Remember, God's word declares that this is God's plan of salvation; 1. Hear the WORD of God. 2. Believe that Jesus is the Messiah. 3. Repent of your ways that are contrary to God's will. 4. Be Baptized INTO Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 5. Remain faithful to the Covenant you have made with God.

Have you done all 5? Kept number 5? (Matthew 24:13)

So I understand those verses but I am saying, again only my opinion, that A true Christian would never violate step 5 so I believe a true Christian could never, in his right mind, curse God.

I don't know this guy I quoted but he did what a lot of you are doing.

He said this: "When I was quite young I gave myself to the Lord. I then drifted away from the church – and from Jesus – and ended up walking in a wilderness for 25 years. For 25 years I cursed Jesus and fought against Christianity. I ‘studied’ the Bible looking for ‘wrongness’ in it and read as many anti-Christian writings as I could. I became an intellectually strong anti-Christian and could debate, and win, with committed Christians in many areas, specially on early church history. Guess you could say that I was like Saul, a zealot against the Christians.

One day, in the fit of despair after being separated from my wife of 19 years, I asked “the Creator” (my concept at that time) how I could get her back. I heard an audible voice (which I instantly knew to be Jesus) say: “Believe in Me”. It was mind blowing to say the least. I can understand the confusion Saul must have felt when he was slam-dunked to the ground by the very Person he was persecuting. It was the same with me.

Was I ‘saved’ during those 25 years of anti-Christian ‘preaching’? From my own heart I can say a resounding NO. If I had died and gone to Heaven during that period I would have screamed to be taken to Hell! Yet I had accepted Jesus at a Youth For Christ rally when I was about 14. Saved forever, or not saved forever?

To the people who would say that I really wasn’t saved when I was young I just point them back to John 3:16. I did believe in the salvation of Jesus in those early days – I witnessed at school, I was very much involved with my local church, I even wanted to become a minister of religion when I grew up!

But, after five years, I backslid – and not just a little way either! I fell all the way into the pit and Satan had me fully in his grasp. Saved? No way. The Lord gave us the power of freewill, and I had exercised mine to be a servant of Satan." (Graham Pockett)

Even though he claimed to be saved deep down I believe he was still a false convert. So again there is still hope Repent today and trust in Jesus. Can't you see His mercy towards all of you?

I will have to pray and study more on this to truly grasp this issue. I believe the Bible says there are stony ground hearers and true converts. If a person that understands the truth and truly believes and fears the Lord then what in his right mind turn him away unless they believe it all to be a lie. If that was the case then did he believe, truly, in the first place? That isn't faith that is doubt. They are polar opposites. That is why doubt is very dangerous ground to walk on. If my wife or child would doubt my sincerity I would be so very offended, I am sure God would be also. I will do some homework and get back to you.

Dan Marvin said...

For many years I thought I was a Christian but lived in sin without repentance, it was a false Christian belief. It was just that, I believed in Jesus and that he did what he said he did but then one day my heart woke up and I tuned away from sin forever. I took up my cross and became a true Christian and never will I look back. God saved me. It started as a belief but now I serve Christ.

Anonymous said...

Dan,

I was just wondering when you sleep.

I have noticed you on here at all hours of the day, including late at night.

You remind me of the "Energizer Bunny".

Brian said...

FROM DAN MARVIN'S PERSONAL BLOG:
"Just because mankind doesn't accept circular arguments doesn't mean a thing it's still the truth. God is who he is because he says he is who he is. Like it or not."

Oh really? Did God actually tell you that, or did you read it in your bible?

Now remember Dan, the bible is not solid evidence. It is only "Hear-Say" which is something you keep failing to realize.

So if you can't prove it beyond the bible, then you once again have no evidence. "Like it or not".

FROM DAN MARVIN'S PERSONAL BLOG:
"We need always to remember that absence of proof is NOT proof of absence. Denying any proofs does not one bit disprove or even diminish the theological perspective."

So? it still does not prove that you are right either Dan.

.:webmaster:. said...

Here Paul's central teaching is that...

Dan, no one knows who authored the book of Hebrews. It's anonymous. In fact, many Christians throughout history have thought Hebrews should be left out of the Bible. Maybe that would make your apologetic on this one easier.

Oh, and you do realize, don't you, that John Wesley taught that Christians could indeed lose their salvation, right?

Further, all the good Calvinists who opposed John Wesley and his Armininanism, believed in predestination in regards to salvation. So, while Calvinists do teach that Christians will persevere in the faith until death, they also believed only those chosen for salvation from before the beginning of the world would be saved.

Dan, Calvinists believe that salvation comes before faith, and that salvation is a free gift, a gift that cannot be chosen or rejected, it is simply given. In other words, one is either chosen by god for salvation or not.

The religion you have adopted is a smashed-together version of Calvinist and Arminian hermenutics. And until the middle 1800s, your hermenutic didn't even exist. Good thing you were born today so you'd have the correct version of the right segment of Christianity to believe in!

Brian said...

I'm waiting to see if my prediction about how Dan Marvin replies to WM will come true.

Let's wait and see if he does what I think he will do.

Dan Marvin said...

"Dan,

I was just wondering when you sleep."


LOL you noticed this also. My days are around 20 hours long because I take care of the babies. Right now, one is sick and my 1 year old gets up every 3 hours to feed. It is the hardest work I have ever done and the most rewarding. I feel blessed with blood shot eyes. I get to homeschool the children and watch them grow up, it's an honor.

Hebrews has always a bit mysterious and very different from the other gospels, and for me, the hardest to understand. That being said, by just a definition alone I am just a Christian but by the definitions that you use I could be considered Calvinist and believe Monergism. I would say a Biblicalist. I believe the Bible would not survive this many years for this many people if it were filled with just lies. Lying is too unnatural to hold up for this long, I actually believe Genesis story of the beginning to the fate of the lost and future descriptions in Revelation. I am a Christian plan and simple. I hope you all will be the same also someday.

Enjjpt said...

I swear that DAN MARVIN is the WEBMASTER...ala the Phil Hendrie show.

If you are not familiar with the Phil Hendrie show, he is a talk show guy who has 'guests' on his show who are nuts. People get all riled up and call in to rant about the 'guests' crazy positions. Phil 'moderates' the discussion, but is is odd that him and his 'guest' never talk over each other, or interrupt each other...I was fooled for about a week, then I got the joke.

No one can possible be as daft as Dan Marvin. That is my theory and I am sticking to it...

boomSLANG said...

Obstinate, reading & writing-challenged Christian(aka "Dan Marvin"), said...

Remember, God's word declares that this is God's plan of salvation; 1. Hear the WORD of God. 2. Believe that Jesus is the Messiah. 3. Repent of your ways that are contrary to God's will. 4. Be Baptized INTO Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 5. Remain faithful to the Covenant you have made with God.

Boy, that's a lot of requirements, Marvin....and it is especially in stark contrast to three weeks ago when you went on record to say that "nothing is required" to receive the "free gift" of "salvation".[bold added, to reinforce blatant contradictory statements]

Up to date...

Of course, as I and others have established(using reason, logic, and common sense), the above-quoted list is misleading. Only # 2 is required for "salvation".

Repeat: At it's most fundamental level---in order to qualify for Christianity's concept of "salvation", you need only to BELIEVE. PERIOD. Biblegod puts ALL else secondary to BELIEF in biblegod. In other words, these "laws"; these "standards" that Dan Marvin keeps trying to reinforce, mean jack'.

And moreover, let's not forget that we are "programmed" to fail to meet biblegod's "standard of perfection" in the first place. It is IMPOSSIBLE to acheive biblegod's "standard of perfection"("Dan Marvin", paraphrased).

Given that, we can conclude several interesting things:

1) We are destined for "failure", thus, making us dependent on something outside of ourselves(biblegod) to be "saved", thus, our "freewill" is entirely USELESS. We are like robots "programmed" to "miss the mark"---the "mark" that the "programmer", itself, set.(duh?)

2) The biblical "Heaven", could very well in the long run, actually house more criminals than "hell"---"criminals", meaning people who have committed violent crimes in their life-time....i.e..rapists, murders, warmongers, robbers, child molesters, etc.(Ironic?)

3) The biblical "hell", could very well in the long run, house more compassionate and selfless people than "heaven". This means that the people in "hell" could have broken less of these "laws" that dufuss-Marvin keeps blathering about, yet, they are the ones roasting in away for eternity.('got "justice"?)

Enjjpt said...

boomSlang:

Game, Set, and Match...time for Dan to retire, or try a different occupation.

.:webmaster:. said...

"No one can possible be as daft as Dan Marvin."

I agree, and have already said as much. However, he ain't me and I ain't him.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan, you don't actually consider yourself an expert on the Bible, do you? That's a biblicist. That, and somone who subcribes to a literalist interpretation of the Bible.

I think Dan's a troll, and I have thougth it for quite some time. His wife of 19 years left him, his wife had a brain problem and later birthed their fourth child. Dan is a stay-at-home Mom, so I guess his brainy, baby-machine wife is out working somewhere.

It's all wacky, and pretty obviously made up. However, of all the trolls I've encountered, Dan is entertaining, in a way.

Enjjpt said...

Useful idiot, I think. Dan's positions have made us think clearly and develop sound anti-theist arguments. His circular reasoning, failure to answer the difficult questions, provide evidence, and sheer hypocrisy have validated all of my conclusions about religion.

I just have a hard time accepting that I was once just like him...

Brian said...

Quote from Dan Marvin:

<<< Hebrews has always a bit mysterious and very different from the other gospels, and for me, the hardest to understand. >>>

Why is it so hard for you to understand Dan? I thought the "Holy Spirit" is supposed to reveal this stuff to you. What's going on?

QUOTE FROM DAN MARVIN:
<<< I believe the Bible would not survive this many years for this many people if it were filled with just lies. Lying is too unnatural to hold up for this long, I actually believe Genesis story of the beginning to the fate of the lost and future descriptions in Revelation. >>>>

So you admit you believe, however you can't admit that "You know for sure". Believing and knowing for sure are two different things Dan.

As for the bible surviving this many years, there are lots of false books out there that are filled with lies that have survived all of these years, such as the "Muslim Bible", (Whatever you call their book).

Brian said...

QUOTE FROM ENJJPT:

<<<<< I just have a hard time accepting that I was once just like him... >>>>

You know what Dan's reply will be to that Enjjpt.

Here is what Dan will say back to you:

"You were never like me, because I am a christian and you are a false convert also known as "Stony Ground Hearer".

Dan is quiet predictable as most of us already know.

Dan Marvin said...

I don't know why Hebrews is harder for me to understand it just is. I do need to visit it again and I will. BTW, I read the Bible plainly not literally.

I sadly have to bow out, my time is being taken away by the Ron Paul 2008
campaign.

You all seem very resistant anyway, so it would probably be a good idea to end the debate with a 'we will see'. I had fun even though these are very important subjects. I got to know quite a few of you and I am sure you are pleasant people. I mean no harm or ill feelings for any of you. I understand an atheist more as well as I understand my own beliefs more and for that I thank all of you.

to wrap up the last comments:

So you admit you believe, however you can't admit that "You know for sure".

The Bible is truth! I believe if it were full of lies then it wouldn't stand in the test of time like it has. I am speculating no one is sure in speculation, right?

Webmaster: "His wife of 19 years left him,"

I never have said that! Where are you getting your information? I am happily married!

Brian, the "Muslim Bible" (Qur’ān) doesn't even compare to the validity of the Bible. They are not in the same playing field at all, apples and oranges, but I understand your point.

I wish the best for all of you!

Brian said...

QUOTE FROM DAN MARVIN:

<<<< I sadly have to bow out, my time is being taken away by the Ron Paul 2008 campaign >>>>

So it's time to go fight the good fight for Ron Paul then. Ok Dan, if that is your way of simply saying, "I have lost this debate and can no longer prove the case for Christ", then I guess that excuse will be good enough.

Happy Trails Dan!

Enjjpt said...

Dan, you sure know how to pick a winning side.

But, in fairness I'd take Ron Paul's economic platform and limited government ideals anyday. He is out of touch on the rest of the issues, like the war, but I digress.

pdwxm29 said...

Looks like the party is over.

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan Marvin asked before rushing off to the Ron Paul party, "Webmaster: "His wife of 19 years left him,"

I never have said that! Where are you getting your information? I am happily married! "


I got it from here: "One day, in the fit of despair after being separated from my wife of 19 years, I asked 'the Creator' (my concept at that time) how I could get her back." LINK

I erred in that I missed the fact that you were quoting someone else at that point in your missive.

Fair thee well!

Dan Marvin said...

Look in context of what I said:

He said this:"my wife of 19 years"(Graham Pockett)

IT was his wife that left him not mine

.:webmaster:. said...

Dan, are you daft? I said that I erred in that I missed the fact that you were quoting someone else at that point in your missive.

And I thought you were wasting time here? Dan, please, go with your impulse and move along now. You've about worn out your welcome.

G'bye.

Churches Together in Southend said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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