If I'm wrong ... I’m off to hell when I die

Sent in by Mandy

First, let me say I hope there is no word limit to this. Secondly, that my testimony is a bit different from others I have read on this website. I don’t come from a fundamentalist or evangelical background and no life shattering tragedy tested my faith and found it wanting.

I grew up in rural Australia- while church was a focus of much of the charity work and social life of my home town, it was never hard-line: we were taught evolution in my tiny school, and all the local men, even the most “pious”, drank too much at the pub on a Friday night. My family were members of the Anglican Church. My mother was head of the Young Women’s Association, my father was heavily involved with working with the “at risk” teenagers. I went to church and Sunday school, knelt when told to, sang the boring hymns that were easy for the elderly women to sing along to with their shrill voices. I said grace at dinner, prayed before going to bed that god would keep my soul.

If I’m honest, I didn’t much understand it all. I believed because I was told I did. My memories of Sunday school were of colouring in pictures of a handsome, long haired man walking in the desert. I remember someone once asking me, aged seven, what my favorite bible story was, and replying I liked "the one where the donkey road on all those palm leaves".

My parents suddenly ceased attending church when I was about 12- I was never told why, although later I heard it had something to do with the secretary of Young Women’s Association skimming off the top of the donation account, and the subsequent decision of the church not to act. Prayers at bedtime and grace at dinner continued for a few years, but eventually dried up. My sister, slightly wilder than I, was sent to a catholic high school, I went to a government one. Too this day my sister holds on to the catholic doctrine, although her naturally scientific mind makes her mock her own beliefs at times.

I went on to university, studying to become a teacher, and although I never considered myself a "practicing" Christian, it was still there, I said prayers for those in 9/11 and the Bali bombings, and outright pleaded to god when a family member became seriously ill. Although witnessing a friend become "born again" by being baptized in a bright pink rent-a-spa in a suburban church did make me begin to raise an eyebrow at the Christian faith, It wasn't until I started traveling that I really began to examine the label "Christian" which I had always given myself.

In Britain, I began to feel shame when I saw the local father of the Anglican church that my school was affiliated with drive up in his Jag, leather jacket clad, to preach to families who were, by and large, struggling on or below the poverty line. In Budapest, I sat in a catholic church and felt both revulsion and fascination at the solid gold and marble pillars of St Stephens, after stepping over dozens of beggars laid prostrate on the ground, blue hands cupped in a silent plea for money. In Borneo I talked to an Iban warrior who had been converted by missionaries, and wondered why my god of blue stone churches and starched cassocks had more right to inhabit his lush green world than the ancient gods of the forest.

Finally, in Qatar, I met a person who became one of my greatest friends -- an Evangelical Pentecostal Christian, also from Australia. Far from home and church, I went with her as a kind of moral support to a new Christian church, the only one of its kind in the country and squeezed between two mosques. I sat in absolute confusion as flags were waved, people cried and sung and shook, and heard all about the sin that was inside me.

My friend allowed me to debate the Christian ideals that were firmly embedded in her and slowly seeping out of me, without judging. I came to a few conclusions. 1. I was not convinced that Jesus was the son of god, and absolutely did not believe that he was resurrected from the dead. 2. If some of the bible was completely against my own morals -- i.e., hating homosexuals, beating women, racism etc., -- than how could I justify believing any section of it? Either it was all true or not. I had no choice but to believe it was not.

So that leaves me here. If I'm wrong, and god is fire, brimstone and vengeance, than I guess it means I’m off to hell when I die. Many good people have gone there before me, most notably my grandfather, a man dedicated to his family, his country, hardworking, tough and loving and, technically, the least Christian man you could ever meet. I am not atheist. I believe in this world there is something that defies definition or classification, that can’t be put into commandments, or written in a book, be it Bible or Qur'an, and which cannot be effected by prayers or chants or sacrifice. Last time I was in Australia the national census was on, and I was asked to write what religion I followed. I put "TBA".

76 comments:

Hellbound Alleee said...

That's good, but of course our chances aren't simply--either we're right or we go to hell. That's a false dichotomy set up by christianity. Luckily for us, we have math. The chance that there's hellfire and brimstone for unbelievers is probably the same as hell being a place where people ride rollercoasters, or hell being a big line at the supermarket. The chance that we die is , well, one in one. That's based on observation, since the bodies don't get up or disappear or go through any observable change beyond natural and unnatural (embalming, cremation) processes.

So the christians basically suffer from bad math when they claim some kind of fifty-fifty chance. And with other religions, they suddenly claim some kind of fifty-fifty-fifty-fifty etc chance. That's Homer Simpson math.

Carbon_Enigma said...

If one believes in God, I find it is best if they skim the fat(Remove Religion). Religion can be morally inflexible and may get you stuck in something detrimental. I say, if you believe in God, Do it without having a scientifically closed mind like some christians. For Eg, The whole thing with Evolution.

Carbon_Enigma said...

This is Random, I know, but I am happy to be an ExChristian. Christianity was the Matrix, it imprisoned my mind. Now the cables are detached and the wires, gone.

Grigs said...

Ever thought of the fact Christianity is not the matrix, rather the fallen world is and Christianity through its messiah/Neo takes us out of it. Only our Jesus doesn't have sex with short haired girls who really are badly casted. He was celibate.

Philip said...

I have to say, I only met a few Australians during the few weeks I was consulting in Qatar, and the one I had the most opportunity to chat with was also definitely not at ease with the general environment.

Since I was only there a short time and I felt fairly certain of the prevailing insistence on various mythologies, I admit to holding my tongue most of the time.

There were a few that I felt were honestly curious enough that I was willing to have some more in-depth conversations and it seemed the very concept that there might not be a creator/etc was a surprising and totally foreign concept for them.

Regarding your statement that "If some of the bible was completely against my own morals ... than[sic] how could I justify believing any section of it?" As the old saying goes, "Even a stopped clock can be right twice a day." Of course, some of the details will vary depending on which version you might reference; but, the bible is a stopped clock, showing a snapshot of a part of society across the years it was recorded and updated. As hellbound_alleee also mentioned, it is a false dichotomy to set it up as "either it is all true or not". Though I'll admit you may well find it not worth your time searching through all of the repugnant bits to find the worthy items since there are many other references available that might help elucidate your morals.

Never-the-less, thank you for stopping by and sharing.

Harlequin said...

" Ever thought of the fact Christianity is not the matrix, rather the fallen world is and Christianity through its messiah/Neo takes us out of it. Only our Jesus doesn't have sex with short haired girls who really are badly casted. He was celibate."

That would mean 'the Real World' runs by magic. People get better from death, people can fly etc.

Why did the world GET 'fallen' in the first place?

GH

Steven Bently said...

I'm with you, either the Bible is true or it's a lie.

If the Bible is true then, snakes, bushes and donkeys can talk, rivers can turn into blood, angels, demons, and devils exist, good and bad spirits exist, people can be raised from the dead, the blind can be made to see, virgin births are possible, prayer has a powerful event changing effect, ghosts and holy ghosts exist, the heart is the center of all thought and emotion and it can talk and hear words, the world is indeed flat and has four corners, blessings and miracles regularly occur, physical healings occur, walking on water is possible, someone can live in the belly of a whale for 3 days and nights, God and Jesus can talk to us directly, all one needs is a little faith, doesn't require very much from us if we would only believe.

I have faith that the Bible is all true.

I have faith that the Qu'ran is true.

I have faith that the Harry Potter stories are true.

But by using common sense, logic and intellectual honesty, I know deep down in all reality that those things are all human-made lies.

judy said...

Don't write off all Christians as mindless idiots.(Otherwise you risk becoming a proponent of just one more form of fundamentalism.)

Ever read "The Language of God: A scientist's evidence for faith"? It's written by Francis Collins, a brilliant scientist who is currently head of the U.S. Human Genome Project. He believes in evolution and is also a Christian. He understands that there are different genres of literature in the Bible, some of which were never intended to be taken literally. Reading the Genesis accounts of creation like a science textbook, is akin to reading Shakespeare like a phonebook.

Collins sites some compelling examples of how the makeup of the universe points to the existence of God. He also gives some remarkable reasons for his own faith as a Christian.

In other words, if you really want to intelligently debate the merits of Christianity, why not try engaging some of its more serious proponents?

StewartP said...

Grigs wrote that Jesus was celebate. I guess that's because the gospels say he didn't have sex.
But the gospels don't say that he had a crap either, and yet I'm sure he had an arsehole.

.:webmaster:. said...

Judy! You said we should consider "some of Christianity's more serious proponents."

Ah, what would those be, exactly? Would you perhaps mean the doctrine of a flying, un-dead, god-man whose blood sacrifice appeases a wrathful god? Or would you be thinking of a loving, kind, wonderful deity that threatens horrific, unending torment in hell for any who reject his peaceful affections? Or perhaps you are thinking of something else altogether?

You'll have to be a bit more specific, if you have something to offer.

Waiting...

boomSLANG said...

Judy: Don't write off all Christians as mindless idiots.

No one is saying that all Christians are idiots, only that a good portion of religious people are ignorant.

Judy: Ever read "The Language of God: A scientist's evidence for faith"?

Who is saying there's no evidence for "faith"? "Faith" is merely believing in something for which there is no proof. Sure enough, "faith" does exist---a child has "faith" in his/her invisible friend; a Muslim has "faith" in Allah. So?

So the "evidence" isn't lacking for "faith", it's lacking for what people have faith in. If your Christian/author/scientist had evidence for the object of his/her "faith"..i.e.."Yahweh", the Christian biblegod, they'd be in every science journal and every newspaper around the globe....as well as elgible for a Nobel Prize.

Judy: He believes in evolution and is also a Christian.

Irrelevant conclusion. Evolution is both theory, and fact, no matter WHAT "beliefs" and/or theology a proponent of evolution clings to. Maybe a bigfoot tracker believes in evolution, too. So?... does that mean that suburban gorillas exist? No, it does not.

Judy: He understands that there are different genres of literature in the Bible, some of which were never intended to be taken literally.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I bet ALL the verses that conflict with science; all the verses the conflict with his personal worldview, are the ones that are "not meant to be taken literally". Um..got subjectivity?

Judy: Reading the Genesis accounts of creation like a science textbook, is akin to reading Shakespeare like a phonebook.

A science textbook? Who would try to approach any literature that talks about creatures being made out of mud, talking snakes, and firmaments, like a "science textbook"??? It's a fable...and THAT'S how it should be treated. A fable is a fable is a fable. You can't make gold out of a turd. Furthermore, Shakespeare doesn't seek to explain how the earth and 125 billion gallaxies came into existance.

Judy: Collins sites some compelling examples of how the makeup of the universe points to the existence of God.

To the best of my knowledge, the closest thing I've heard/seen that points to a "God" being responsible for the universe, is the Anthropic principle. However, as this hypothesis suggests that the earth is "fine-tuned" to suit human life, it is quite the contrary, as science shows that we have adapted to the earth. For cryin' out loud, the earth is 2/3rds water. So why weren't we "created" with gills and webbed feet?

He also gives some remarkable reasons for his own faith as a Christian.

Again, irrelevant conclusion. I don't think it's a stretch to think that there are Buddhist scientists and Muslim scientists who think that they, too, have "remarkable reasons" for their faith. So?

Judy: In other words, if you really want to intelligently debate the merits of Christianity, why not try engaging some of its more serious proponents?

The problem is that no matter how "serious" someone of "faith" is, faith is faith is faith. Again, "faith" is firmly believing while not having evidence. How does one "debate" the position "I believe"? You can't. It boils down to evidence, and if people had evidence, they wouldn't need "faith". But of course, the theist doesn't have empirical evidence. So it's no wonder why it's called the "Christian Faith", not the "Christian Law", or the "Christian Knowledge".

Anonymous said...

Hello Mandy,

I read your post titled " If I am wrong I am off to hell when I die.
Mandy I beleive you are seeking for the truth and and meaning of life.
I urge you to get a Bible and begin to study it I believe that will help you in your search. The Gospel of John would be a great place to start.
in response to your statement of
" I came to a few conclusions. 1. I was not convinced that Jesus was the son of God, and absolutely did not believe that he was resurrected from the dead.
If you truly seek Him you will know He is the Son of God an is sitting at the right hand of God His Father.
If you need concrete evidence of His resurrection when you go to Isreal ( The Holy Land ) you will see it intact as it was 2000 years ago. He is risen and lives Mandy Goly be to God!
I urge you to read Mark chapter 16 Ask The Holy Spirit to give you understanding.
Finally Mandy if you want to see the kigdom of God YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. You will find this in detail in John 3:1-21
You must confess that Jesus is The Son of God he died on the cross and God rasied Him From the grave on the third day. Mandy don't doubt God. It is foolish to do so.
God loves you so much. God's love is beyond human understanding. But humans continued to sin animal sacrifices were no longer acceptable to God. That is why He sent his Son Jesus made him a sacrifice for man's sins.
I pray the Holy Spirt will soften your heart and lead you to receive Jesus as your personal savior.
God Bless You
BB

Anonymous said...

Correction ( goly)
I meant to say Glory Be to God!

BB

Anonymous said...

Oops...webmaster was a bit too keen to jump in with the usual "isn't God terrible" list - a proponent is a person, not a doctrine...LOL

Astreja said...

BB, Jesus is not alive and well and living in Tel Aviv. If he ever existed (questionable, IMO), methinks he ceased to be and has been pushing up the daisies for approximately 1,974 years so far.

And Israel is not the place it was 2,000 years ago, either. Even if it was, its existence does not prove the existence of your god. The Parthenon is still there in Athens; therefore, Athena exists!

The problem with "Bible studies" is that you will tell Mandy and others that they're "not doing it right" unless their conclusions happen to agree with your own.

As for "...Don't doubt God. It's foolish to do so" -- Prove that your god actually exists and that it actually does anything in this world that cannot be explained by science or probability.

And, for Eris's sake, please preview your posts. "Goly" is the least of your worries.

.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous,

I used the word "doctrine" because the "proponents" mentioned in your holy books are mythological characters: i.e., the flying un-dead and the deity. Hence my use of "something else" as opposed to "someone else." In other words, there are no proponents, there are only characters.

Anyway, whether I could have phrased my comment better way so as to communicate my thought more effectively or not, do you have something substantial to add to the discussion, or are you tapped out? I'm thinking, for instance, why no Christians never attempt to answer the "isn't God (LOL) terrible (It's so freaking hilariously funny to think of people screaming in horror in hell that it makes me ROTFLMFAO!)" list?

Still waiting...

eel_shepherd said...

Anonymous, a question for you:

How old was Methuselah when he died? No rounding-down, now.

Jeff said...

BB why should Mandy read the Bible, it's already been established on this thread alone that the Bible is nothing more than man made fabricated lies and superstitious myths.

A God nor Jesus never wrote any part of the Bible, why not BB? Because they are the fabrications of someones imagination.

Leonard said...

I bet most people don´t realize that Methuselah drowned in the Flood. But he did, according to the numbers.

BB: how can you make such inane statements? You don´t have a leg to stand on, and you know damn well.

Spirula said...

But humans continued to sin animal sacrifices were no longer acceptable to God. That is why He sent his Son Jesus made him a sacrifice for man's sins.

I know the critical thinking skills of fundamentalists are at or very near zero, but this comment is a good example of its deactivation.

If gawd is omniscient and omnipotent (which is impossible if you think about it), why did gawd go with animal sacrifices to begin with? sHe knew they would be ineffective. Isn't that the very definition of senseless killing? No one before Jesus, based on this comment, benefited one iota from these sacrifices, as the sacrifices did not "wash away" anyone's "sins". No one after Jesus benefited from them either, other than using a rather bloody ritual carried out for hundreds of years only to demonstrate that it was an ineffectual bloody ritual carried out for hundreds of years.

Catch a clue BB. Mythology is all you're dealing with. Mythology has no interest in being consistant or realistic, so "believers" are forced into all sorts of mental contortions in order to argue that it is true and consistant.

Mike Russell said...

In dealing with animal sacrifices I have a thought. God says that he never changes. Why then was animal sacrifices ok in the "old" days, but not now? Then all of a sudden Jesus was the only "right" sacrifice?

Anonymous said...

Hi, Mike
I am glad you asked... God does not change He is still the same yesterday and today and tomorrow.

When Adam and Eve sinned,although He throw them out of the garden of Eden but He didn’t leave them without hope of heaven. He promised He would send a sinless Sacrifice to take the punishment they deserved (Genesis 3:15). Until then, they sacrificed innocent lambs, showing their repentance from sin and faith in the future Sacrifice from God that would bear their penalty.
How ever The people of Judah continued to sin. They were outwardly religious but sinful and wicked in their hearts.
Isaiah 1: 11-17 They thought as long as they sacrificied animals they thought they can live any way they want. But God Said enough! I don't want your sacrifices anymore. He knew all along about their deception. But God kept his promise and Gave Jesus.
Jesus was pure he never sinned.

BB

Anonymous said...

Christianity is a joke

jim earl said...

Mandy, thanks for your post. You are going in the right direction now and as you know, you can't just return to your former life even if you wanted to. Why not? Because once you know the truth, you can never believe the bullshit again. Having faith requires not knowing the truth.

I would add to the last post: Christianity is a joke, a bad joke at that.

Anonymous said...

Hello Jim Earl,

Why do you beleive Christianity is a bad joke ? Please do not use any foul language.

Thank you.

BB

jim earl said...

Hello BB;

A bad joke is something we are not able to laugh at even though it's supposed to be funny.
Christianity is worst than a bad joke because it would be funny except for the fact that many people take it so seriously.

Why did you ask for no bad laugauge? Was it because I called what you believe in "bullshit"?

Spirula said...

Jim Earl said Why did you ask for no bad laugauge?

Don't you know Jim, BB is a CHRISTIAN so he is entitled to go around telling other people what to believe, how to behave, and appropriate lanquague? Even on starkly NON-CHRISTIAN sites.

It's their privilegded station in life, because they love the correct Angry-Tantrum driven-Invisible-Sky-Daddy.

Or some fucking thing like that.

boomSLANG said...

BB: God does not change He is still the same yesterday and today and tomorrow.


Yes..."the same"....NON-EXISTENT.

Look, you're going to expire, Bible Boy(BB), just like every other living organism. Get over yourself---lose the GOD-DAMNED superstition, already.

Anonymous said...

Hello Boomslang,

God said He has made man in His image. You beleive He is Non existant. I wonder who is your creator?
God loves you. He woke you up today and allowed you to write that post. What if He didn't want to wake you today. Who is in control? you? or the God who you claim as non existant?

There is still time Boomslang to repent and humble yourself before him. He has made that possible through His son Jesus Christ. Yes God is still the same Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

May the Holy spirt open your heart.

BB

Anonymous said...

Hello Spirula,

I have not told anybody how to live or how to behave. I can only tell that to my children. If you have read all my post I have only shared the love of God and Salvation through Jesus Christ.
I am sure there is a reason God has led me to this website He wants to reach everyone. Even though the majority people on this website have rejected God's love or have given up on Him. He is patient, Loving and kind and His love edures Forever!!!!!!!

It is His will that everyone be saved and no one perish. You can be reconciled to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. Just belive and surrender your life to him.

BB

boomSLANG said...

Bible-Bot(BB) regurgitated: God said He has made man in His image.

No, I'm sorry, God didn't say any such thing. The pages of the your holy book are made out of wood, and ink. NOTHING else. The redactors of your holy book were ordinary men. NOTHING else. In order for your "God" to "say" something, as you state, your God would need a mouth and vocal chords. Guess what?.....your God doesn't have a mouth, nor vocal chords, why?....well, again, because your God exists no where outside of your two brain cells. NOWHERE else.

Bible-Bot: You beleive He is Non existant.

Correct. Like Pinnochio.

BB: I wonder who is your creator?

Stop wondering, my parents created me.

BB: God loves you.

No, he doesn't. The Christian biblegod to whom you keep refering doesn't exsit---just like Zeus, Shazam, and the Great Pumpkin don't exist.

BB: He woke you up today and allowed you to write that post.

No, my alarm clock woke me up.

BB: What if He didn't want to wake you today.

You mean, what if my alarm clock didn't wake me up? I'd be late.

BB: Who is in control? you?

Yup.

BB ...or the God who you claim as non existant?

Me. There is no God.

'Bot: There is still time Boomslang to repent and humble yourself before him.

There is still time to get an education and surrender your ancient superstitious bullshit beliefs.

'Bot: He has made that possible through His son Jesus Christ.

God, his bastard son, and the holy spook, don't exist. I'm an Atheist. People's words won't make me a believer in God(s)...only empirical evidence of God will make me a believer in God(s). Get it through your thick skull.

'Bot: Yes God is still the same Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Yes, agreed..NON-EXISTANT.

BB: May the Holy spirt open your heart.

And you have kids? Yikes!...that's just plain scary.

Anonymous said...

Hello Everyone,

we are in a spritual warfare. satan and his demons are working to decieve people.

But God is faithfull.

boomSLANG said...

One bible-'bot, or another wrote:

But God is faithfull.

No, I'm sorry, but the implied biblegod you speak of doesn't exist, firstly.....and secondly, even if any "God" existed and he/she/it was omniscient..i.e.."ALL-knowing", then said "God" most certainly would not need "faith".

Your non-sensical apologetic soundbites just won't work around here. Stick it in your memory bank.

Steven Bently said...

Warning!!!! Warning!!!! There's spiritual war going on, warning!!!

we are in a spritual warfare. satan and his demons are working to decieve people.

IT's not satan, it's dumbfuck preachers inventing spiritual warfare to deceive people.


If God is real, why does one need faith, shouldn't a real God be evident?

How do we kill this disease????

Spirula said...

Okay, let's start here.

BB wrote to me: I have not told anybody how to live or how to behave.


Now lets see what has been said.


BB to Jim Earl: Please do not use any foul language.


BB to me: You can be reconciled to Him through His Son Jesus Christ.

BB to boomSLANG: There is still time Boomslang to repent and humble yourself before him.


BB: Displaying the same degree of internal consistency as the holy book he believes.

freeman said...

BB,

Convince as many of your fellow-bots to commit suicide and we will call it the rapture! Amen!

Lorena said...

Hey Mandy!

I'll see you in "hell." It will be my pleasure to meet such an intelligent lady from Down Under. By the way, you are a great writer!

Anonymous said...

Hello Everyone

I have done part in sharing the gospel Of Jesus Christ. Now is up to you to decide. I will continue to pray for each of you. I grew up in a Christian home I got saved when I was 17 After my second semester in college I stopped going to church and partied a lot had fun I began to question and read diffrent relegion books Mostly Wayne Dyer
After I got married and had my kids
I started going back to church.
I have tried to live with out Jesus in my life. I realized i can't do it I won't do it. I have internal peace and assurance only through Him.
some of my friends don't share my faith. But I still love them. My husband beleives in God but not Jesus. He belives the Holy Bible was written by men not by God.
It is not easy being a Christian in this era. But it is worth it. I am open minded and care about others.
I study the Word mostly on my own.
thank you

BB

Spirula said...

I have tried to live with out Jesus in my life. I realized i can't do it I won't do it.

Remove "Jesus" and insert "caffine" or "tobacco" or "alcohol" or "cocaine" etc. and you get a sense of what you are really dealing with. BTW, we've all heard those "badass sinner" testimonials before. They don't work here. You do realize this is an EX-Christian site don't you?

It is not easy being a Christian in this era.

If you're in the US you have either a severe persecution complex or difficulty dealing with the fact that rational thought, logic, and science are all demonstrating that your beliefs are all myths.

And your husband is right. The bible was written by men. The bible even says so (e.g. 2 Tim. 3:16). No where in the bible can you find a verse the bible was written by gawd him/herself.

Steven Bently said...

To BB,

If the Bible is true, then these conditions are real and verifiable outside of the Bible:

the world is only six thousand years old
dinosaurs never existed
the world is flat and the earth is the center of the universe
the Sun goes around the earth
demons, invisible spirits, ghosts, holy ghosts, demons, angels, exist
snakes, bushes, and donkeys, can talk
virgin birth is possible
god and jesus live in the clouds above
prayer has secret powers over this god
miracles and blessings do occur
invisible souls can either be saved or unsaved, depending on what a person decides to believe in their heart
the heart is the center of all thought and emotion
people can talk to god and jesus with their heart
there is no such thing as a brain
Jesus is alive walking around somewhere
people can be raised from the dead
people can walk on water
water can be turned into wine
5000 people can easily be fed with two loaves and two fishes
only invisible jesus can save invisible souls
bacteria and diseases are caused by demons
science and technology is of the devil
a person can live in the belly of a whale for three days and nights

Guess what BB? We do not believe this shit..!!!

Your husband is right, listen to him, not some pathetic preacher.

Maxe said...

Ultimately, these arguments accomplish very little, if anything at all for it is impossible to prove God's existence or his lack thereof. As an atheist, I think the most important point is that if God exists he is completely irrelevant. He is uninvolved, and is totally removed from our human existence. Thus, if believing in God (not religion) helps you get through the day, good for you. We all experience hardships at one time or another and use available ressources to pick ourselves up again or to aim higher in life. Although I believe the idea that an all powerful Creator exists is completely untrue and most definately void in my existence, I do not understand why so many of you attack those who are happy because of their faith. In the same breath I don't understand why people, who have found joy and happiness in God, Jesus, whatever, get the impression that those of us who don't share these beliefs are unhappy. They are therefore compelled to convince us to join them in a life we want nothing of.

I've struggled with God's existence before, and have arrived at the conclusion that if he exists, and if he gave me the gift of life, he would want me to use it. When I give someone I love a gift, the last thing I want is for them to keep it in a closet, safe from all harm, worship me for having given it to them, rather than simply using the shit out of it. If you do believe you were given the gift of life, than don't waste through worship, worship through living.

Jim Arvo said...

Hello BB,

I've replied to several of your posts in different threads. I don't think you have ever responded to me, but I'll try again.

BB: "I have done part in sharing the gospel Of Jesus Christ. Now is up to you to decide."

You make it sound as though you have said something that we've not heard before. I'm always baffled by this. Christians visiting this site often seem to think we are unaware of Christian dogma and apologetics, and therefore need to be "informed". That is completely ridiculous. The vast majority of us know the Bible and Christianity very well; in fact, I'd wager that most of us know it better than you do. So, please don't imply that our opinions have been tentative for want of the full story from you.

BB: "...I began to question and read diffrent relegion books Mostly Wayne Dyer..."

Dyanetics?! So, you decided that Christianity makes more sense to you than Dianetics, is that right? If that's what you studied, then I'm afraid you haven't looked very far. I'm virtually certain that you've never read a single book that is critical of Christianity. In fact, I'll bet you can't even name one.

BB: "It is not easy being a Christian in this era."

Oh? Just try being an atheist. In many "enlightened" contexts (such as academia), it's not a problem at all. But in mainstream America, atheists are by far the most despised minority. In fact, it's still considered perfectly acceptable to blurt out patently bigoted remarks concerning atheism, even in the mainstream media. I believe that is slowly changing, but we've got a LONG way to go.

BB: "I am open minded..."

Can you please explain what that means to you? Unless I've missed it, it seems that you do not respond to other people's comments; you simply state and re-state your own convictions. To me open-mindedness implies a willingness to listen to and understand other points of view. In your opinion, is it possible to be "open minded" without attempting to understand other points of view?

Anonymous said...

Spirula

why would you say " Remove "Jesus" and insert "caffine" or "tobacco" or "alcohol" or "cocaine" etc. and you get a sense of what you are really dealing with.
Why would you suggest I use alchol or cocaine. What does that say about your values. Would you say that to anybody? or just me because i am a Christian.
Yes I am aware this is an Ex- Christian website.
So what I am allowed to post here just as you are.

I am not sure what you are trying to say buy pushing destructive drugs.
You don't have to be a Christian to realize drugs are harmful to individuals and families.
your post are a reflection of you not mine.

BB

Anonymous said...

Steven Bently,

What do you beleive in? If you don't Beleive In God? or the Holy Bible?
You said if the bible is true "miracles and blessings do occur"
Yes miracles occur everyday.
How do you define a miracle or a blessing?

BB

Anonymous said...

Jeff,

Many people around the world beleive in God.
That means there are a lot of imaginative people. Imagination is what makes the world go around. In addition to love, peace, kindness, children, justice, diversity etc....
[Imagination is Better than Knowledge. Albert Einstein ]

Thanks for reading my post.
BB

Anonymous said...

Hello Jim Arvo,

in response to:
" The vast majority of us know the Bible and Christianity very well; in fact, I'd wager that most of us know it better than you do. So, please don't imply that our opinions have been tentative for want of the full story from you.

BB: what do you know about the Bible and what lead to your unbelif?

Jim :" you decided that Christianity makes more sense to you than Dianetics, is that right?

BB: it does to me.

Jim: If that's what you studied, then I'm afraid you haven't looked very far.

BB: what do recommed then?

Jim: "I'm virtually certain that you've never read a single book that is critical of Christianity. In fact, I'll bet you can't even name one.

BB: how would you know?

BB: "It is not easy being a Christian in this era."

Jim : " Oh? Just try being an atheist. ...in mainstream America, atheists are by far the most despised minority. In fact, it's still considered perfectly acceptable to blurt out patently bigoted remarks concerning atheism, even in the mainstream media.

BB: I agree. I assure you I don't despise atheists. However It goes both ways. There are christians who hate atheist and atheists who hate Christians.
This world would be better if people didn't hate each other.

Thank you for reading my post

BB

Wes said...

"I am not sure what you are trying to say buy pushing destructive drugs."

Oh, cripes. He just didn't get that, did he. -Wes.

Astreja said...

BB, it went right over your head. Spirula wasn't advocating drugs, but pointing out that you have an addiction to Christianity.

And yes, your husband is 99.99999% likely to be right. The Bible was written by humans. Large portions of it, such as the flood myth, were outright swiped from earlier Mesopotamian myths. (Hint: The area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers probably had a severe flood at one time, and one of the earliest writers mythologized the event.)

And the god that you worship is probably an amalgam of several older gods including Baal (yes, the "other" god who got Yahweh's knickers in a twist) and El.

boomSLANG said...

Bible-'Bot(BB) is still loitering on this site, and said: Many people around the world beleive(sic) in God.

...::yawn::...

Yes, yes, MANY people believe in "God". News flash: "Belief" says NOTHING about objective truth. Examples:

1) "Many" children around the world "believe" in Santa Claus.

2) "Many" Islamics around the world "believe" in Allah.

3) "Many" Buddhists around the world "believe" in Buddha.

4) "Many" Scientologists around Hollywood "believe" in Scientology.

5) "Many" Ufologists around the world "believe" in Aliens.

6) "Many" smokers around the world "believe" that they are impervious to the affects of smoking.

BB continued: That means there are a lot of imaginative people. Imagination is what makes the world go around. In addition to love, peace, kindness, children, justice, diversity etc....

Well, BB, whether you meant to, or not...you have implied that people who "believe", do so based on things "imagined"...e.g..."imagination". So, we can conclude that those people in examples 1-6, above, "make the world go around".

Please......please tell us how the people in examples 1-6, or the people in any other group of people who determine reality based on things "imagined", helps us as a species. Waiting.

Jim Arvo said...

BB asked "what do you know about the Bible and what lead to your unbelif?"

I've studied the Bible (as well as many other "holy" texts), read perhaps several hundred of books on Christian apologetics, and discussed/debated Christianity with believers for roughly 35 years. As a result, I do not believe its supernatural claims have any more validity than any other man-made religion (which is to say none whatsoever). In a nutshell, I reached this conclusion by studying the arguments and historical evidence that believers point to, and finding that they are uniformly poor, often failing to rise above the level of logical fallacy. Every religion traffics in the same fallacies and wishful thinking. Christianity is no different.

BB: "what [books] do [you] recommed then?"

Are you suggesting that you are satisfied with having studied only Christianity and Dianetics? Have you studied Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Mormonism, or Islam? Are you aware of the fact that there are hundreds of books that carefully examine the origins and claims of Christianity and conclude that it is largely if not totally a man-made myth? If not, then you could start by looking through the books listed at this very site. Have you heard of the "Jesus Seminar"? Have you heard of Robert Price or Earl Doherty or Richard Carrier or Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins or Robert Ingersoll?

BB: "how would you know? [that BB has not read a single book critical of Christianity]"

First, I didn't say that I knew, because I have no way of knowing that. I said I was "virtually certain" based solely on the types of statements that you've made. As you have not shown any inclination to question your own beliefs, and show very little curiosity about other points of view, I strongly suspect that you have never been exposed to detailed arguments that cast extreme doubt on the claims of Christianity. Now, if I'm wrong about that, all you need to do is tell me which books you're read and I will stand corrected.

BB: "This world would be better if people didn't hate each other."

I can't quarrel with that.

Anonymous said...

Boomslang,

Yes indeed I am still around.

I've decided not to conversate with you. All your posts have been rude and hatefull towards me. Only God can replace that stony heart of yours with love. However, I forgive you for you do not know what you are doing.

BB

Ps I will be posting around I just won't read yours.

tigg13 said...

Hi Maxe.

I don't think the goal of these arguments really has anything to do with winning or losing or proving or disproving anything. Oh, there might be lurkers who, from time to time, stumble onto an idea that they haven't thought of before and this might lead to some profound change in their belief system. But this is really the exception, not the rule.

I think the real goal is to have an opportunity to express opinions and ideas that many of us don't get to share very often. It is cathertic, cleansing and helps to heal old wounds.

As far as attacking christians goes, let me point out that they don't have to come here and enter into our discussions. They are free to ignore this website and let us deal with these issues on our own, while they go about their business blissfully enwrapped in their religious beliefs.

They are the ones who feel compelled to preach, to condemn, to proselytize and to challenge and criticize our ideas and conclusions.

Given the nature of this site (and the profound liberties granted to us by our beloved webmaster) I have absolutely no guilt or shame when it comes to telling these christians what to shove, where to shove it and how deep it needs to go.

boomSLANG said...

BB said[to boomslang]: I've decided not to conversate with you. All your posts have been rude and hatefull towards me. Only God can replace that stony heart of yours with love. However, I forgive you for you do not know what you are doing.

Firstly, BB, a conversation requires one to listen, as well as speak. Since you've been here, it seems that you have only been doing the latter. Like most thiests, you have decided, a priori, that the religion that you have been indoctrinated with is the universal objective "Truth" for all of mankind. Well, you are now on an EX-Christian website preaching about your religious convictions, while arrogantly assuming that none of us have investigated Christianity, and/or gave it a chance. Well, ya know what, Sir/Dear?...I find that every bit as insulting as your charges against me, even though you believe in your head that you are being diplomatic, and practicing the one "True" religion.

No, I don't have the patience of others when it comes to people like you, but I readily admit that. However, I also readily admit that if you provided me with one shred of empirical evidence for your Jesus, that I would weigh that evidence, and at the very least, give you the repsect you apparently think you deserve. Until then, I won't handle you or your subjective rantings with kid gloves.....'m kay?(rhetorical)

Spirula said...

BB said :
why would you say " Remove "Jesus" and insert "caffine" or "tobacco" or "alcohol" or "cocaine" etc. and you get a sense of what you are really dealing with. Why would you suggest I use alchol or cocaine. What does that say about your values. Would you say that to anybody? or just me because i am a Christian.


I suspect from this, and other statements, that you have a reading comprehension problem. I suggested nothing of the kind. I simply implied that an inability to "live without Jesus" is akin to the inability of addicts to "live without chemicals". In either case, the coping mechanism is not based on reality. In my opinion, that is why many addicts fervently adopt religion as simply a substitute for their chemical cravings.

It might help if you would pay attention before you start accusing others of inappropriate values.

Nor did I suggest that you not comment here as it is an Ex-Christian site. I simply pointed out what myself and several others encounter with individuals such as yourself. That is, thinking that your "preaching" is somehow new to us and that, somehow, we just missed out on the "True Christian" doctrine that you consider yourself privy to. It is arrogant, condescending and presumptious of you to do so.

Considering the critical thinking and reading comprehension skills you've exhibited on this thread, no one here considers your "arguements" the least bit compelling.

Anonymous said...

Hello Sprula,

In respose to your metaphor.
you are right if one was to equate Jesus or Christianty to a substance or drug, I guess I am addicted and have no desire to seek rehab.

BB

boomSLANG said...

you are right if one was to equate Jesus or Christianty to a substance or drug, I guess I am addicted and have no desire to seek rehab.

Then as rational adults, we should no more accept that your Jebus addiction is good for us, anymore than a heroin addict thinks his or her smack addiction is "good" for them.

Thanks for reinforcing our decisions to "kick the habit".

God 'less.

Steven Bently said...

To BB,
Steven Bently,

What do you beleive in? (I only believe in what I know to be true, not what society tells me is true, and not what ancient books or preachers tell me is true, I know you do not understand this)

If you don't Beleive In God? or the Holy Bible? (I believe in what is real, not make believe, nor imaginatory)
You said if the bible is true "miracles and blessings do occur"(yes, I've never seen a miracle, nor a blessing)

Yes miracles occur everyday.
How do you define a miracle or a blessing? (a miracle nor a blessing can be defined to my satisfaction, a miracle would be something that occurs outside of reality that can be proven without a shred of doubt, a perfect example of a mircale or blessing would be if the seven astronauts in the Columbia Space Shuttle that were killed in 2003(?) had survived, or at least one of them, perhaps the Jeweish guy, rem.. God's chosen ones?)

Also you can click on peoples names that have an undeline under them and go to their personal blog and get alot of peoples beliefs and opinions, many much better than mine, with many suggested links also, FYI, TC

JayBird's Joint said...

"I've decided not to conversate with you. All your posts have been rude and hatefull towards me. Only God can replace that stony heart of yours with love. However, I forgive you for you do not know what you are doing.

BB"


I find it amazing how "ex-christians" and atheits hate so much, something that don't even exist....they are so mad about God that they are actually mad "AT" God.

.:webmaster:. said...

Jaybird,

Which god would you be referring to?

Whichever god you think we are mad at, how do you know that this god exists?

If I say, "ALLAH IS NON-EXISTENT" does that mean I'm mad at God?

Think about it.

We are mad because we were deceived by a stupid mind-control cult and lost much of our lives to it. Former cult victims deal with anger. When you are delivered from your delusion, you too will possibly feel some anger.

Anonymous said...

you had me with you there for a while until you had to lie, the bible doesn't say to hate homosexuals, beating women or condoneing racism. I know the bible, spent 25 years reading. You don't have to lie to get your point across. just tell the truth, but make sure its all true.

tigg13 said...

Hey, it's not lying, it's creative interpretation.

Christians do it all the time.

.:webmaster:. said...

No, the Bible says nothing about "hating homosexuals." It just recommends killing them.

Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Here's a short bit on the "creative interpretation" of the Bible on this topic: Click here.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
.:webmaster:. said...

Anonymous...

Your activity on this site and your libelous comments have been logged.

When you are identified, charges will be filed.

rickyusvi said...

Steven Bently wrote:
"I have faith that the Bible is all true.

I have faith that the Qu'ran is true.

I have faith that the Harry Potter stories are true.

But by using common sense, logic and intellectual honesty, I know deep down in all reality that those things are all human-made lies."


Harry Potter is not a "lie." To the best of my knowledge, J.K. Rowling has not told her fans that her novels are anything but unadulterated fiction.

(Some books of the Bible, notably Jonah, and possibly Esther and Job, may have been intended as fiction by their human authors; however, they become lies when told by the inerrantist.)

hg said...

hey ppl. cool down. i'm sure you have your doubts. let's read what the bible says.

Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

there is a designer behind every design, i'm sure u agree. behind every cell, behind every strand of hair, behind a grain of sand. behind the sky . you must have wonder who made them? its God. not by chance. mathemagicians have already agreed that the chances of the world forming by nature is a flat 0%. check this out yourself if you think otherwise.

its even historically recorded that the places mentioned and what happened was actually true.

ever lied before?
ever stolen?
this two simple deeds could deem you as a sinner. and this could send you to hell.

but by the grace of God He has sent Jesus to die and bring us to heaven. here's what in John 3:16

John3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

your ticket one and only ticket to heaven is free and made available thanks to the blood of Jesus.

I can testify God's changing power in my life. its awesome. its authentic. will you come and talk to me personally plz @ quekhongghwee1@yahoo.com.sg

there might be things that are clouding your mind right now. plz direct your questions to me at quekhongghwee1@yahoo.com.sg.
i'll give you satisfactory answers if i can. please. :)

Jim Arvo said...

hg said "...there is a designer behind every design, i'm sure u agree."

Yes, I agree! Just like there is a painter behind every painting, a playwright behind every play, and an architect behind every building. Yup. Let's see where you go with this iron-clad reasoning...

hg continues "...behind every cell, behind every strand of hair, behind a grain of sand."

Ooopsie. What happened there? We went from "design" to "cell" and "hair" and "sand". You lost me. How do you know those things are designed?

hg: "...you must have wonder who made them?"

I must have wondered who made them? Let me ask you this. Have you ever wondered which turtle made them? (Hint: I gave the answer in another thread.) Honestly, I would like an answer to that. Have you ever given any thought to which turtle has created the entire universe? Can you give me a "yes" or "no"?

hg: "...mathemagicians have already agreed that the chances of the world forming by nature is a flat 0%."

Please do elaborate! I love mathematics and I'd be quite happy to check those computations. Sounds very interesting, so please share with us what those "mathemagicians" have come up with. Looking forward to it.

hg: "its even historically recorded that the places mentioned and what happened was actually true."

Sounds like you've really studied your history! I'm guessing that you've spent years tracking down all the historical evidence, and corroborating it. Am I right? Again, please tell us more.

boomSLANG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
boomSLANG said...

hg: hey ppl. cool down. i'm sure you have your doubts. let's read what the bible says.

Dear hg,

If you learn only one thing on this EX-christian website---learn that quoting scripture to make a case for the existance of the alleged "omniscient", "omnipotent", "omnibenevolent", and "ALL-loving" Christian biblegod is an utter waste of time. Yup, "cherry-picking" your favorite verses is pointless, as I could extract dozens of verses that portray your biblegod as a sadistic tyranical murderer; an insensitive bully; an insecure jealous wuss-bag....and at times, a good ol' fashioned dumb-ass. In conclusion, certainly nothing worthy of my worship, even if such a being did exist.

hg continues: there is a designer behind every design, i'm sure u agree. behind every cell, behind every strand of hair, behind a grain of sand. behind the sky . you must have wonder who made them? its God. not by chance.

Tsk, Tsk. Okay, right from the get-go, we see that you're an amateur who is clueless about his opponent's arguments. The difference between you and me, is I KNOW my opponents arguments, as I've heard them a gazillion times---and every time, they are either circular, contradicting, or defy reason....if not all of the above. In other words, they fail to be convincing.

Let's see--you instist that the universe and all of nature, i.e.."cells", and "hair", etc., is "evidence" of "design", yet, you have the infinite regress of who "designed" the designer to deal with. Furthermore, you blather on about "chance", concluding that whatever "is", MUST have intent behind it. However, unfortunately for you, the implications for that means that either "God" came about by "chance"(which "couldn't happen")....OR, that there is "intent" behind god's existance, which, by your own "logic", necessitates "god" having a "designer". Sorry Charley = (

hg: mathemagicians have already agreed that the chances of the world forming by nature is a flat 0%. check this out yourself if you think otherwise.

Provide your sources--yes, I'm chompin' at the bit to see the peer-reviewed statements of the world's top "mathemagicians".

hg: its even historically recorded that the places mentioned and what happened was actually true.

Again--sources, please.

hg: ever lied before?
ever stolen?
this two simple deeds could deem you as a sinner. and this could send you to hell.


There's no such thing as "hell"; there's no such thing as "sin"---but all that aside, if you believe that it is "justice" that someone who lies or takes property is deserving of perpetual everlasting torment by fire, you are officially in-f%cking-sane, and you should seek help.

Moreover, if you are saying that "God's Word" is inherently "good" and "just", then what would you do if one day your god spoke to you and told you to start killing non-believers? Would you do it? Be honest. Better yet, your biblegod condones this very thing in Deuteronomy. So how many non-believers have you killed in your life?

hg: your ticket one and only ticket to heaven is free and made available thanks to the blood of Jesus.

It's "free" as long as you accept it, otherwise, you get tortured for eternity. So obviously, there's still an outstanding debt, and my "sins" are clearly NOT payed for in full. And BTW, if Jesus is still "alive", then there was no "sacrifice", and in my book?..that's called "fraud".

hg: I can testify God's changing power in my life. its awesome. its authentic. will you come and talk to me personally plz @ quekhongghwee1@yahoo.com.sg

"God" didn't do jack-shit. Your belief in "God" might've produce "authentic" results in your own mind, but that's because that's the only place "God" exists.

Bye now.

hg said...

i'm glad to give you sources.

Names of Lots family and city of Zoar found on tablet unearthed in Elba in 1964 excavation. (bible, Genesis 19:18-22)

Sargon's palace was discovered in 1843 by Paul Botta. (bible, isaiah 20:1)

King mesha mentioned in an inscription called Moabite or Mesha Stone that was discovered in 1869 by F A Klein.(bible, 2kings 3:4)

A large hexagonal prism was discovered which describes Sennacharib's exploits including seige of Jerusalem and king Hezekiah. (bible, 2kings 18,19; 2Chronicles 32)

Shalmaneser left a obelish ,which was discovered, describing his life including a carving of Jehu, king of israel paying tribute. (bible, 2kings: 17:3-6)

In the British museum, it contains a decree made by Cyrus which allows captive people to return to their home. (bible, 2 chronicles 36:22-23)

1882, the discovery of Chronicle of Nabonidus confirmed Belshazzar, king of babylon existed. (bible, daniel 5:16,29)
___________________________________


Laws of Nature

if the gravitational force of the earth is altered by 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001%, the sun would not exist and neither us. (Jeffrey Zweerink, research physicist, UCLA October 2003 as cited in Norman Geisler. )

Astotrophysicist Hugh Ross calculated the probability that the 122 constants of the laws of nature such as speed of light, electromagnetic force etc the earth requires to exist could exist for any planet by chance in the universe is 1 in 10^138. there are only 10^70 atoms in the whole of the known universe. it also should be noted that all these constants have to be present not just in the initial conditions of the univere's beginning but also thoroughout its existence.
(Hugh Ross)

does the fine tuning of the universe imply intelligent purposeful design? and so many constants and parameters just must be fine-tuned to such unimaginably precise degree. just illustrate the odds. a stack of 500 sheets of paper is around 2-3 inches high. 6X10^23 would reach from the earth to the sun more than a million times.


:) i'm not trying to argue your stand. i'm just showing the truth.

Jim Arvo said...

hg, I have not checked the historical items you mentioned, but I have no problem tentatively accepting that they are legitimate. What is at issue here is NOT whether some of the places, events, and people mentioned in the Bible are accurate: as far as I know, nobody claims that the Bible is completely devoid of correct historical information. You made the assertion early on that the Bible has been shown to be "true"--I presume you meant that in a very broad sense. My question to you is whether you have any extrabiblical evidence for any of the miraculous claims of the Bible, such as the sun standing still, the resurrection of Jesus, the parting of the sea, saints rising from their tombs and wandering about, etc. Do you even have any extrabiblical evidence for the existence of Nazareth in the first century, or for the slaughter of the innocents?

The Bible makes a vast number of claims. Given that it was written within a historical context, it's no surprise at all that it makes reference to some actual places, people, and events. That's not in question. Any reasonable book of historical fiction also has that property. The question is whether any of the fantastic claims can be corroborated. As far as I have been able to tell, the answer is a resounding "no".

hg: "if the gravitational force of the earth is altered by 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001%, the sun would not exist and neither us."

Your statement does not even make sense, so either you or Norm Geisler (or perhaps both) have paraphrased the original statement very poorly. Have you bothered to look up the original argument? Do you know what the calculation is based on? Do you know if this has been disputed or refuted by other scientists? (FYI Geisler has very little understanding of science, so I think it a mistake to depend on him to convey scientific information accurately.)

hg: "Astotrophysicist Hugh Ross calculated the probability that the 122 constants of the laws of nature..."

Yes, Hugh Ross has proposed many such ideas, and he has legitimate training in science (specifically astronomy). However, his ideas are disputed by the vast majority of scientists, primarily because he makes too many unfounded assumptions. Other physicists (Victor Stenger, for example) have made similar computations using a bit more caution, and have arrived at vastly different results. Moreover, the very notion that the physical constants could be anything other than what they are is pure speculation. Nobody knows. We have a sample of size of ONE--the universe we see--so any notion of probability is extremely dubious to begin with. Hence, any such assertion must be taken with a small grain of salt.

hg: "...it also should be noted that all these constants have to be present not just in the initial conditions of the univere's beginning but also thoroughout its existence."

Again, this is pure speculation. (Actually, it sounds like a poor paraphrasing, but I can't be sure. I'd like to see the original statement and how it is justified.)

hg: "i'm not trying to argue your stand. i'm just showing the truth."

You claim to have arrived at the "truth" by reading a few statements that happen to agree with your presuppositions? Have you given any consideration to the arguments and evidence that run counter to those presuppositions?

hg said...

to jim
honestly, you have left me dumbfounded. not because that i doubt my faith now but i do not have the answers to your questions right now.

would encourage you to write to some pastors who are well trained to explain things like that.

anyway, thanks for your time

stronger now said...

Write to some well trained pastors for answers. LMFHAO!

Jim Arvo said...

hg: I've discussed theology with hundreds of people, some of them pastors. In my experience, pastors are perhaps the least prepared to discuss such things, as they typically know only one side of the argument--the side that can be useful to them in assuaging the doubts of their congregants. In other words, I find that they typically have no desire to critically examine any of the positions they advocate. Thus, while they may have copious opinions, I have yet to encounter one with well-thought-out arguments.

There are a few Christian apologists who I believe have given considerable thought to arguments on both sides (e.g. Alvin Plantinga, Cornelius van Till, J. P. Moreland), and I have read what they have to say with great interest. In the final analysis, however, I find their arguments to be only marginally better than the likes of Strobel and Geisler (in that they manage to avoid the most obvious fallacies). If you think you have something novel to offer that has not been analyzed here dozens of times already, then I'd be happy to check it out--particularly if you can provide a direct citation to the original argument, not a watered-down paraphrasing.

boomSLANG said...

hg: i'm glad to give you sources.

Thanks for the sources, hg. Okay, now let's see if you can see the problem with the sources you provided, by comparing them to the following:

Great Pyramids of Giza can be found in Cairo, Egypt. Built around 2560 BC.(Wikipedia)

Praise Amon-Ra!..the One True Sun God!

Jade mask found in Tomb 7, Monte Alban, c. 1300 - 1350 CE.(Mixtec Codices)

Praise Quetzecoatl!..the One True Serpent God!

Bull heads excavated from Çatalhöyük in the Museum of Anatolian Civilizations in Ankara.(Wikipedia)

Akadian seal from third millennium BC can be found in Vorderasiatische Abteilung.(State Museum of Berlin catalogued VA/243)

Enûma Elish, the Babylonian creation epic found by modern scholars (in fragmentary form) in the ruined library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh.(Wikipedia)

Praise Marduk!..the One True Babylonian God!

Although Jim pointed out the obvious problem with the sources you provided, the above should further illustrate how your "sources" are devoid of anything that corroborates that an invisible flying undead man-god exists, and that this man-god's step-son died and came back to life, and is now a zombie who takes up residence inside people's hearts.

___________________________________


As far as the rest of your post concerning "gravitation", "ideal conditions for life" etc., you've really done nothing more than cobble together a poor-man's version of the Anthropic Principle, which can be easily refuted. Roughly, this Principle claims that the universe and all in it is "fine-tuned", via "God", for life, specifically, life on Earth(of course).

Just for fun, and to help you with future debates, hg, here's just some of it's flaws:

1) It assumes that "life", itself, is what makes a universe "special".

2) It ignores the fact that there may be other non-carbon based forms of life out there.

3) If "God" is omniscient and omnipotent, then "the distance of sun", etc., is irrelevant, because "God" could've just created beings that are impervious to the sun's rays. In other words, why should we believe that everything was centered around human life, when much lower creatures are completely immune to affects of the sun..i.e..a "lizard"? Also, if the sun is the "perfect distance" from the Earth, then why do we die by the thousands from skin cancer annually, yet ants, turtles, and lizards can frolic in the sun unharmed?

Evidently, you've never thought about these things, have you?(Rhetorical)

Jim Arvo said...

By the way, here is a short article in which Victor Stenger discusses a recent book by Hugh Ross. He makes some of the same points I made above.

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