I was paralyzed by the fear of hell

Sent in by Jacolyn

I'm a 29-year-old female who has been an ex-Christian for about six months now after being a very devoted Christian for at least 20 years!

I was brought up in a Christian family (Baptist), and when I was 18, I started going to a Hillsong style church, and never looked back until six months ago.

The short story is that I could never understand why a good and loving God would send people to hell, no matter what the reason. Not long after I changed denominations (when I was 18) I was forced to think about hell in a more pragmatic way, as the church spoke quite openly about hell. I went through a period of depression, as all I could think about was, "Most people around me are going to hell.” Every day, with every person I encountered, I looked at them thinking, "They're probably going to hell," and I kept thinking, “What's the point?” I managed to get past that phase; I think I just tried to put it out of my mind. Eventually I managed to stop thinking about hell, and I continued going to church and being a devoted Christian.

I went through another period of depression a few years later, perhaps when I was about 24-25. I went to a youth conference where they talked about hell and urged us to think about our "unsaved friends and family” and to "cry out to god" for them. Well, I cried, but just to myself, depressed, thinking everything is so pointless because most people in the world are not Christian and are going to hell.

Again, I eventually got past the depression.

After a few eventful years, and after my strong Christian grandpa died, I decided to go to Japan as a missionary. I felt "God" calling me there. This was a time in my life when my faith was the absolute strongest, and I guess also where I put Christianity to the test the most. This was when I was 27.

After about 15 months in Japan, I came back to Australia for a short visit for my cousin’s wedding. While I was back in Australia, I attended church; the pastor preached a very awful, awful sermon about hell. He actually said, "People often say to me, ‘If God loves people, how can he send them to hell?’" His response was, "God sends people to hell BEACAUSE He loves us so much!" That made absolutely NO sense to me whatsoever!

But again this made me confront hell in my mind and again I got depressed, and I went back to Japan depressed. In Japan I would often walk passed funerals of old Japanese people -- most of them probably not Christian, as Japan is only about one percent Christian. As I walked past these funerals, my mind was in turmoil, my faith was in turmoil, and I was thinking, "How is it possible that that Japanese person who just died is now in hell for all eternity? That's just not acceptable!”

Let me just stop and say here that the one thing that stopped me from turning away from Christianity was a complete and paralyzing fear of me going to hell. Finally I overcame my fear of hell and have decided to leave Christianity. I don't fear hell anymore, and I don't get depressed about others going to hell either.

There is some stuff I miss of course: the church family, hope in heaven, believing that there is a God out there looking after me. But those things are not enough to make me believe again. The thought of hell is just absolutely unbelievable to me.

Does anyone out there have a similar story?

Comments

Anonymous said…
Jacolyn,
Yeah, it seems as though this is the real power behind Christianity - the threat of Hell.

Everytime I debate a Christian, I get the upper hand through logic and reasoning (Christianity is so illogical, a monkey could outdebate a Christian), and the Christian can only wind up with, "Well, you're going to Hell!"

Where would Christianity be if there were no threat of eternal torment? There would really be no reason for it, would there?

Even after leaving Christianity and becoming an atheist for 28 years, there's still a little gnawing in the back of my mind that says, "What if it's true?"

Intellectually, I know that there is no God, Jesus, Heaven, or Hell, and there is absolutely no chance that I would ever go back to that terrible religion called Christianity. However, that fear of Hell was brainwashed into me as a child and I just can't shake it.

Christianity is evil and the people who perpetuate it should be treated with contempt.

I hate Christianity.
CarlK said…
I agree that there is real power in a fear of hell, but I wonder if it's not a denominational thing, or something. At least it's not something I experienced. Hell always seemed to me like an awfully unlikely thing to be as described.
CarlK said…
I agree that there is real power in a fear of hell, but I wonder if it's not a denominational thing, or something. At least it's not something I experienced. Hell always seemed to me like an awfully unlikely thing to be as described.
Steven Bently said…
Yeah, god says love me or go to hell. Threats are what Christianity is all about, and using threats to raise money.

Ever notice how the collection plate is passed around before the preacher begins, he makes damn sure he gets paid before he begins.

Brazen public robbery behind xtianity.
cipher said…
"People often say to me, ‘If God loves people, how can he send them to hell?’" His response was, "God sends people to hell BEACAUSE He loves us so much!"

Yeah, that's a large part of it. It's been my impression that there is a lot of abuse in fundamentalist families, although it's disguised as "loving discipline". There must be many dult survivors of child abuse in those circles; the reasoning process is the same - "Daddy doesn't want to hurt me. He has no choice. He has to do it, because I'm so bad." This is the logic of abuse.

I agree with those of you who say that conservative evangelical Christianity is a form of child abuse. It ought to be recognized as such, and should no longer be tolerated.
Anonymous said…
Jacolyn,
I had very similar experiences growing up in the church. One of my formative memories of "church" was my mother complaining about the pastor at our Reformed church. He was sermonizing about how all the children in Africa who die without Christ are burning in hell. How's that for an introduction to a loving god. Needless to say we switched churches (to Lutheran) but the horrific memory still lingered. While at that Lutheran church during confirmation classes, the minister tried to put the fear of hell in us by describing all the misery we would encounter if we didn't repent, etc. Many years later after getting married and having my own children, hell came back to haunt me again, this time back at a Reformed church. I was reciting a creed from the Heidelberg Catechism about how we know we're saved because of some assurance the holy spirit gives us. Well, I didn't have the "feeling" and I was struck again by fear. Like you, I kept wondering, "Is this person going to hell? What about me? What about my children? It was absolutely awful. I couldn't sleep or function because I was always worried or checking my behavior against how god wanted me to live. Eventually, I needed to see a doctor for anxiety medication! So yeah, I've had similar experiences. Good luck to you in your battle for sanity!
billybee said…
Jacolyn,
The doctrine of hell is so very insane. I think that this doctrine is what will be the ultimate undoing of 'old-school' christianity.
The bad news is; Some preachers (i.e; Carlton Pearson, Jehovahs' Witnesses)) have found a way around belief in hell. My fear is that this will ensnare a new variety of uncritical thinkers.
I know that there are christians out there who will state "Well, I don't believe that Hell is scriptural". or "Jesus' death will bring ALL mankind to heaven".
"Salad-bar" Christianity (pick what you like) will always be with us. Keep a sharp eye out for the arguments that will attempt to pull you back into the web of confusion.
It took some of us years to undo the fear that had been rooted into my mind. It wasn't easy but eventually I achieved a freedom that cannot even compare with the prison of "faith".
THANKS for your story. All the best to you and your future in reality!
You're certainly not the only one, Jacolyn.

I think that a lot of Christians hate the idea of hell, and don't really accept the attempted justifications for it. They know it's a disgraceful concept, but it's a integral part of the whole Bible package, and although many have tried, there's really no getting round it.

Of course, there are also sadists who actually relish the idea. I'm sure that we've all met some of those bastards.

Going back to the first group. I remember as a young Christian when a visiting preacher gave us one of those sermons along the lines of: Imagine meeting non-christian friends and family on the Day of Judgement, and them saying to you 'Why didn't you warn me?'

The same evening I overheard my mother phoning my non-christian uncle, something she didn't usually do at that particular time of the week. I could hear the nervousness in her voice, and I knew why she was phoning him.

I remember listening in, wondering how she would say it, but in the end she didn't go through with it. She just couldn't bring herself to do it.

I know that this wasn't due to a lack of courage. It was simply that as a decent person she knew in her heart, in that part that is never really fooled, that it's a despicable thing to say.

Who knows, maybe some other people in the congregation that day did go through with it, because only Christianity can make good people go against their hearts like that.
jimearl said…
The fear of hell left me when I discovered that the bible was wrong on so many things. It was with relief that I let go of that fallacy.

I agree that without the fear of hell, many religions would cease to exist. However, many believers don't believe in a literal hell but they still believe in a god and much of the bible.

I ain't afraid of no gods or the places invented by cretins to strike fear in human beings.
cipher said…
I think that a lot of Christians hate the idea of hell, and don't really accept the attempted justifications for it. They know it's a disgraceful concept, but it's a integral part of the whole Bible package, and although many have tried, there's really no getting round it.

Of course, there are also sadists who actually relish the idea. I'm sure that we've all met some of those bastards.


I don't know; I'm not convinced that most Christians hate the idea. I think the "sadists" may be more numerous than many would care to admit.

And, of course, there is a vast body in between who don't find the concept of hell attractive, but aren't that upset about it, either - "It's God's will, and it isn't our place to tell him how to run his creation." They're utterly willing to abandon billions of human beings for all of eternity so that they can have the security blanket for a few brief decades while here. I find this despicable.
leotracks said…
Congratulation to you, Jacolyn, for finding your own way out of the turmoil and psychological abuses christianity put you through.

The bible is vague on the subject of hell (as it is vague in many areas), and yet so many people seem to know exactly what hell entails. Many of the details about hell come from poets like Milton and Dante, just like the popular notion of witches comes from Shakespeare. But it is all the same thing; once an idea becomes common, it is no longer questioned.
xrayman said…
The AntiChristian said,

"(Christianity is so illogical, a monkey could outdebate a Christian)"

Very Funny yet true. The fact is that most Christians don't even realize it until someone with an ounce of objectivity asks them a few choice questions. Since my sepatration from God belief I know I have thrown so many bugs up my Christian friends' asses with logic that they have never heard.

Great Letter Jacolyn,

I guess I really never feared Hell all that much. I was raised by parents who believed in that all loving God who sends all kind folks to Heaven. I always thought Hell was reserved for those who really deserved if like Hitler or Ted Bundy, yet then again I had a hint of doubt about those guys because they were obviously crazy. Could they help it?

I am glad you have removed yourself from the irrational fear of Hell. Just keep coming here and reinforcing your beliefs so you never slide back.
Anonymous said…
Fear of hell is not the basis of Christianity, but it's what makes Christian ideas so dangerous.

Religion is a construct that gives us (false) hope and a sense of purpose (though I would argue that a fake purpose is no purpose at all). That's why people are so willing to believe that there is a God and an afterlife.

However, the idea of hell is what converts it into a powerful social and political tool which can be exploited by those in power. All of the truly negative things about christianity listed on this site come from that very fear. Every christian who comes on here is attempting to save us from hellfire.

Without hell, christianity forces us to waste our lives on a false vision. With hell, it forces us into the bondage of whoever's smart enough to exploit it.
Evelyn said…
The fear of hell is what kept me in church long after I started having doubts. Whenever I wandered away, I came back because I didn't want to go to hell. I finally called my state of mind, "faith at gunpoint". That's no way to live! So, three years ago, I said, enough, and acknowledged to myself that I wasn't a xian any more.

The fear of hell is a strong one. There have been several threads in the forums about coping with it.
Anonymous said…
I've never really understood the whole "Assembly of God" thing...I mean -- doesn't he come already assembled?

I bet the instructions are badly translated from Japanese too....
Anonymous said…
I guess every one that commented similarly as the author feels that even child rapists should not go to jail either.

The man that just raped your grandmother and then kills her then goes into the other room to rape your 2 year old should be just set free, right?

Evil deserves punishment it is that simple. If you break God's law you are a law breaker and the penalty is death, get used to it. Not everyone in jail right now feels they deserve it and they all claim that they are innocent. God will punish the wicked plain and simple and I thank the lord for that.
ExFundie said…
The love and empathy you seem to have for your fellow man is something you'd be hard-pressed to find in the Christian world. FUCK those Mother FUCKERS!!!

yes... I have issues.
ExFundie said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said…
dogeatdogblack,
But that's not what Christianity teaches. "You are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast." Did I quote that properly?

According to Christianity, God only cares whether you believe that Jesus died for your sins.

Yeah, even the guy who raped and killed your grandmother then goes after your two year old can receive God's grace and go to Heaven.

And the average guy who has never committed a heinous crime will be sent to Hell for all eternity for not believing.

Cool religion, eh?
Stephen C said…
To 'dogeatdogblechh',
Get a grip man. Rabid foamings like yours are mostly the reason for the world's being in a most difficult state right now. You know that, but you can't help loving it. And, because of that perverted love, you KNOW in your heart that you have failed to listen to your god, and failed to be whatever good thing your belief system describes. So, you attempt to drown out your bitter self-knowledge with self-righteous, bullying opinion. Hmmm, dogeatdog = dogshit.
Lance said…
I'm glad dogeatdogblack showed up, since this is the same response I got from a Christian friend of mine.

Out of one side of their mouth they say hell is for bad people, but out of the other side they say hell is for non-believers. But there are bad believers, and good non-believers, so which is it?

The antichristian sums it up well they say "And the average guy who has never committed a heinous crime will be sent to Hell for all eternity for not believing."

It seems the only crime that really deserves the eternal punishment of hell is thinking for yourself.

-- Lance
hoosier said…
Ok, even with a rapist or someone like hitler, their victims pain will still at least someday end when they die, with hell we are talking about eternal torment. There is no crime man can commit than can justify that level of punishment. Its overkill and there is no getting around that. I cannot associate myself with any god that condones or engages in hellish eternal torment of this kind for any reason, especially for simply not adhering to the "correct" religion. Such behavior is barbaric and fiendish and a being engaging in this behavior is not worth following. That is why many of us are irrevocably ex-christian.
Lance said…
One more comment for dodeatdogblack. My sister was raped when she was 15 years old, but as pissed as that makes me, I would not send that asshole to eternal torment in hell. We are talking forever here. After a billion years of torment his pain is just getting started. That seems more than a bit excessive to me.

I'd rather forgive him than inflict hell on him. It seems I have a lot more grace and forgiveness than that imaginary asshole of a god you have.

-Lance
Anonymous said…
First of all, Jesus mediates only for the saved. This is why it is important for people to become Christians - so they can have Jesus Christ as their advocate, before the Father, on the Day of Judgment. The Old Covenant could not save us (otherwise we would not need the New Covenant), and it gave way to the New. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and since He is God in flesh, we have the Perfect Mediator. Therefore, we can rest assured that our Lord will always live to intercede for us (Heb. 7:25), and that we are eternally secure in Him.
Anonymous said…
Dogeatdogblack,

I hear this "We deserve it argument" over and over again, and it doesn't hold water.

Punishment serves 3 purposes:

1) To deter, or to keep others from committing the act being punished.

2) To remove threats to society so that they do not put others in danger.

3) To rehabilitate, or change destructive behaviors.

Hell does none of these things.

It does not deter us from sinning because, according to your dogma, we are all sinners regardless of how well we live. We're born that way, so we can't be detered from sin.

It does remove us from heaven, but annihilation would do that just as well, and without the needless suffering.

It does not rehabilitate. Hell is eternal, no rehabilitation is possible.


So the only reason we are being punished is because God hates us. But one of the very tenets of Christianity is that God loves all people.

But we "deserve" to be punished with no chance of rehabilitation. Let's pretend for a moment that I concede that a person who is truly evil deserves to be tortured for eternity in hell.

What is our crime? Is it existing? Because if so blame our Almighty Creator, not us. Is it our sinful nature? Because if so blame our Almighty Creator, not us.

Christianity claims that God does not force any nature upon us. But it also claims that humans are naturally evil. This, above all, is a contradiction. We cannot be born with a nature that our Creator does not bestow on us... unless there's no God, and that would be unthinkable. If all human beings will inevitably sin, then we have no choice in committing the crime we will be punished for.

My greatest sins according to the bible are as follows:
1) Pre-marital sex with a single partner
2) Impure thoughts about others
3) Disrespect of my parents.
4) False Witness by lying.
5) Blasphemy

Were you a judge, would you sentence anybody to jail time of five years for these actions? Would you sentence them to five years of intense torture for these actions?

I should hope not.

But here, you argue that I deserve more than five years of intense torture. You argue that I deserve an eternity of the most horrendous torment imaginable without even a moment of relief.

I have no right to face my accuser or to present evidence. I have no right to even appear in a courtroom until my sentence has already been decided. My judge (and your God of Infinite Mercy) has not even had the common decency to tell me from his own mouth that these are the punishments I will face.

A christian rapist who repents of his crime is treated humanely in a jail cell for 70 years. I, the blasphemer, the fornicator, who has never seriously harmed another human being and has always attempted in all things to treat life and the property of others with respect and dignity will be treated like the worst mass murderer forever.

Ask yourself, truly ask yourself...
does that seem fair?
Astreja said…
To Dogeatdogblack (and any other legalists who might like to make excuses for their torturer-god):

In My opinion, no crime is deserving of eternal punishment. None. No being that I can imagine (including our mythical auto-deicidal friend Biblegod) is capable of committing an action that would justify unrelenting torture for eternity.

And if someone was, in fact, capable of and actively planning to commit such an action, one would hope that an omniscient, omnipotent deity would have the good sense to stop the crime before untold innocents got hurt.

I just finished reading Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion earlier this evening, and in the chapter "Childhood, Abuse and the Escape from Religion" (page 361 of the paperback edition) I found this food for thought:

"If hell were plausible, it would only have to be moderately unpleasant in order to deter. Given that it is so unlikely to be true, it has to be advertised as very very scary indeed, to balance its implausibility and retain some deterrence value."

It is true that many crimes go unpunished on earth, and numerous people go to their graves unpunished and often undiscovered.

Postulating a "Let's get even with all the bad guys" afterlife does not actually render 'justice' of any sort. The concept of Hell pollutes the human psyche with primitive bloodlust and revenge fantasies, traumatizes small children, and paints a very poor picture indeed of the ethics of a supposedly "loving" god.
Anonymous said…
Just as there were three offices held by people in Israel; prophet, priest and king, so too does Jesus hold the same three offices. In Israel, the prophet spoke the words of God to the people, the priest offered the sacrifices to God on behalf of the people, and the king ruled over the people, as God's representative. The three offices held in Israel foreshadowed the three offices held by Jesus.

Because Jesus holds the three offices of Prophet, Priest, and King, we can more fully see the scope of His perfection. We see that Jesus reveals God to us, intercedes for us, and rules over us. He has provided all that we need before the Father, so that we might eternally dwell in safety with Him. Jesus has done it all, and because of Him, we can have rest.
Lance said…
dogeatdogblack said:

"First of all, Jesus mediates only for the saved. This is why it is important for people to become Christians - so they can have Jesus Christ as their advocate, before the Father, on the Day of Judgment.

Oh, now I get it. Jesus loves me, but his dad thinks I'm a shit. But wait, aren't Jesus and his dad the same dude? Now you have me confused.

-Lance
hoosier said…
Look dogeat, none of us here are going to follow jesus again, hell is just an insane concept. Nobody belongs there, and I will not follow any religion or god that espouses such a thing, no matter how much "love" and "salvation" they promise. Beside that, how could you ever be happy in heaven knowing that your loved are roasting for all time while you live it up?
Lance said…
Hey dogeatdog, please check out Hebrews 6:4.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."


There, your own bible tells you that it is impossible for you to convince us to come back to you delusional beliefs, as we are ex-christians here. Even though Jesus in god and all, he still gets his feeling hurt when we subject him to public disgrace, so he is not going to let us back in now matter how wonderfully illogical your arguments are.

I now give you permission to go away and let us go in peace to your imaginary hell.

Feel free to stay in the very real present day hell of you own mind, but I'm sure everyone here wishes you get to escape some day.

Good luck.

-Lance
Lance said…
Oops, three typo's in one paragraph. Let me try that again:

There, your own bible tells you that it is impossible for you to convince us to come back to your delusional beliefs, as we are ex-christians here. Even though Jesus is god and all, he still gets his feeling hurt when we subject him to public disgrace, so he is not going to let us back in no matter how wonderfully illogical your arguments are.

Peace.

-Lance
Jackie said…
Thanks everyone for your great responses to my letter! Very interesting indeed!!

To: "Pull The Other One" :

Regarding your comment: "I remember as a young Christian when a visiting preacher gave us one of those sermons along the lines of: Imagine meeting non-christian friends and family on the Day of Judgement, and them saying to you 'Why didn't you warn me?'"
I remember listening to sermons like that and feeling so guilty, because I could never bring myself to actually tell my non-christian friends and family that they would go to hell if they didnt repent! Glad I dont have to deal with that guilt anymore!

To: "dogeatdogblack"
Your argument is not logical. As others have so eloquently pointed out. A rapist and killer will get a just punishment... several years in jail, he might even get out before he dies and have a chance to live... a person like myself, whose worst "sin" is perhaps telling a lie or reacting in anger.....deserves an ETERNITY of torment? Is that a just punishment? The bible does say that God is a just God.... Doesn't make sense. Quoting bible verses to us wont work cos we are all ex-christians, we already know those bible verses. Can you answer honestly, In your honest opinion, is anyone on the planet, even Hitler and Ted, deserving of eternal torment?
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said…
Dear The-walruss,

While we're comparing notes ...

1.Pre-marital sex with multiple partners

2.Impure thoughts about my sisters-in-law (Yeah, both of them.) and my wife's friends. (Looking at the menu doesn't mean I'm going to order anything!)

3.Post-marital sex with ...(Oooops! Honey! You're not reading this, are you! No, no, never! Really!)

4.Keeping a vast collection of Japanese lesbo porn.

5. Disrespecting my parents? (Hmm, I lived with them until my late twenties. Rent is horrendous in my hometown.)

6.Drinking scotch until the number of people in the room doubled.

7.I told my wife that I was working late when I actually went to the sauna once ... okay, twice ...alright, maybe three times.

8. I told the Holy Spirit to fuck off when I was 19, and he did.

Come to think of it, maybe I should go to Hell :(
sconnor said…
Does anyone else get the visual, that dogeatdogblack, is sitting at his computer, naked, swaying back and forth, with wide, woebegone, crazy, eyes, as he flogs himself?

Listen here dog, If it is so damned important to become a christian and have Jesus as your advocate so you can gain entrance to the eternal bliss of funky-town and avoid the eternal torments of fire and gnashing teeth in hell, then your god is doing a shitty, fucking job of getting his message across. The worlds population -- at this point in time -- is only 30% christian while the other 70% of the world are other religions or non-religious and out of the 30% of christians, only a minority have the same delusional, fucked up ideas that you do.

So either your god has fucked up and has done a shitty job getting the "good news" to everyone, equally and he doesn't give a shit about the other 70% ( more like 85%-90%, considering the differing christian views) of his earthly children, that he created, just so he can sadistically torture them for an eternity.....
..... or you are just a delusional, shit-brained, dumb-assed, christian.

Wow, you must be talented, if you can flog and type at the same time.

--S.
Hells Bells said…
Judgement and Justice:

Not all people in jail think they're innocent. Not all criminals get caught. Some criminals get caught but then the prosecution fails. All countries have an imperfect criminal justice system, based on a set of ideals that everyone within it strives to attain.

ATF stated what my view of Christianity was - if Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot or Hitler accepted Jesus Christ as Lord in their dying breath then that is sufficient for them to enter heaven. Jesus then atones for their (multiple heinous) sins in front of a judgemental Father God. If my grandmother didn't confess Jesus as Lord, then she is punished for eternity - and I would struggle to name any heinous sin that she committed.

The key "sin" is therefore actually unbelief - you are punished for eternity simply because you don't believe, yet you are not given any evidence to turn unbelief into belief. Now, how on earth is that justice?

And yet Islam makes the same claim - if you don't believe in Allah you are condemned for eternity - and God (Yahweh) is deemed to be different from Allah. I think one interpretation may be that dogeatdog will be in the Christian heaven but in the Muslim hell. Another interpretation is that it's all made up, dude.
THE ACE said…
I just don't believe it. As long
as ExChristian has been on the web,these pathetic Bible-beaters still don't get it. They just can't
get it through their brainwashed
heads ALL THEY ARE DOING IS THE SAME THING ALL OF US USED TO DO.
The same tired religious cliches,
the same ancient Bible verses that
prove nothing except somone with
time on their hands wrote them down.

One more time, dogeatdog, or whatever your name is. WE HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AND GREW SICKENED WITH IT. Why is that so
hard to understand?

I never thought it took a great
deal of intelligence to be a
fundamentalist. Posts like his
pretty much confirm that.
KCinBAMA said…
The GOOD news of Atheism: Hell does NOT exist. Your are NOT guilty of being born into sin. You were innocent all along, and wrongfully accused.

The BAD news of Atheism: No afterlife. The life you got is the only one you have, you are responsible to use it wisely.
clair said…
Yes, I remember when my second child was born and three months later my mother reminded me of the importance of baptism, "because what if something happened and then you know where the baby would go!"
I guess she meant actual HELL, not purgatory, she is Lutheran not Catholic. The scales were falling from my eyes already, about the whole bullshitting mess, but after a few years I can say that the threat of my baby going to hell because I didn't hurry up and take him immediately to church and promise god that I would continue the indoctrination for the next generation, really helped me. Helped me to figuratively vomit out every bit of nonsense and silly bible rules ever forced down my throat in the first place. The horrid, rancid pile of puke is in the coat closet just inside the church, inside a mop bucket. I knew they would want me to save it to use in the next 29 years of sermons.
Dave8 said…
DEDB: "First of all, Jesus mediates only for the saved."

Actually, if this fictional character Jesus is omniscient/God, then the character didn't mediate for anyone. The character already knows the outcome of everyone's saved or unsaved life. Good thing the character Jesus is fictional.

DEDB: "This is why it is important for people to become Christians - so they can have Jesus Christ as their advocate, before the Father, on the Day of Judgment."

Right and this is why Christians need to become Muslims, before the day of judgment and their God.

DEDB: "The Old Covenant could not save us (otherwise we would not need the New Covenant), and it gave way to the New."

A good argument that the Christian God's character isn't omniscient, perhaps senile.

DEDB: "Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, and since He is God in flesh, we have the Perfect Mediator."

Oh, back to the omniscient character Jesus again, the Christian roller-coaster ride to salvation; our God is omniscient, our God isn't omniscient, repeat.

DEDB: "Therefore, we can rest assured that our Lord will always live to intercede for us (Heb. 7:25), and that we are eternally secure in Him."

Therefore, I conclude, you have no clue about your fictional character's intentions, until someone else writes another chapter in the Christian Bible, or makes edits to it, like they did for hundreds of years after the original was pieced together.
Anonymous said…
I guess I need to just leave it up to God then. Remember it starts with repentance (as you know) We must be sorry first for what we have done wrong before the healing(rebirth) can begin. Kind of like an alcoholic, you are all still in denial.

Also keep in mind even God repents and he will repent that he ever made any of you and cherish the fact that you all understand His plan for salvation.

"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)

In fact, there are a number of Scriptures that speak of God repenting. For example, in the days before the great Flood, "it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth" (Genesis 6:6). In the same chapter containing our text, God said: "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments" (1 Samuel 15:11). Yet the Scriptures plainly teach that God changes not. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent" (Numbers 23:19). Bible critics have made much of this apparent "contradiction" in the Bible.

There is no contradiction, of course. The words translated "repent" in both Old and New Testaments are used of actions which indicate outwardly that a "change of mind" has occurred inwardly. It is precisely because God does not repent concerning evil, that His actions will change toward man when man truly repents (this human "repentance" can go either way; changing from good to evil, or vice versa), and God will respond accordingly, since He cannot change His own mind toward evil.

Thus, He said concerning national repentance: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them" (Jeremiah 18:8). That is, if the nation truly repents, then God will change His own projected course of action. He seems outwardly to "repent," specifically because He cannot repent in His inward attitude toward good and evil.

God has greatly blessed America in the past, but America’s people have drastically changed in recent years. Can the time be long coming when God must say: "It repenteth me that I have so favored this apostate nation?" HMM
Anonymous said…
he will repent that he "regrets" ever made any of you
cipher said…
Honestly, half the time I can't even understand what it is that Christians are trying to say.

Listen, guys, a word of advice - if you're going to attempt to convert people, it would behoove you to at least study the fucking ENGLISH LANGUAGE!
Anonymous said…
Now that always confused me.

If God is omnipotent and can see the future, how exactly can he change his mind when said future comes into being?

If he knew that people were going to be evil to begin with, then how did he repent of ever making them? He ALWAYS knew. If he knew the flood was coming, and that he would regret making all these people who were so terribly evil, then why make them to start out with? HE ALREADY KNEW that they would turn out that evil.

In fact, if he created the tree of knowledge, stuck it in the garden, created Eve with natural curiousity and a desire to eat the fruit, and knew all along that the serpent would tempt her and she would give in, whose fault is it exactly that she ate the fruit?

It's certainly not the serpent's fault, he was just doing what he naturally did. It's certainly not Eve's fault. She was just reacting in the way she would naturally react. It would be the fault of their natures... which God created.

Come on now, this isn't a hard one to figure out, just once, I'm begging of you, use your head. An all knowing God can have no regrets, an all knowing God saw it coming.

Still hopeful that there's a working mind under that shell of irrationality,

The Walruss
cipher said…
Still hopeful that there's a working mind under that shell of irrationality,

You're asking for an awful lot, walruss. Their minds gave out a long time ago, and the warranties have expired.
Astreja said…
DeDB: "guess I need to just leave it up to God then."

Yes, you do that. Because the idiotic crap you're spewing is highly unlikely to lure even one of us back into the sheep pen.

"Kind of like an alcoholic, you are all still in denial."

Um, *you're* the one who believes in invisible punishing gods, talking snakes and zombie godkids. We got on the wagon long ago, and drove it right out of town.

"Also keep in mind even God repents and he will repent that he ever made any of you..."

Ah, speaking for gods, now, are you?

"He seems outwardly to 'repent,' specifically because He cannot repent in His inward attitude toward good and evil."

And reading gods' minds. This gets better and better.

"God has greatly blessed America..."

How fucking dare you belittle the efforts of the millions of fine men and women who built America! Your god blessed nothing, because it never existed.

You're not the droid we're looking for. Go away.
.:webmaster:. said…
Christian doggy said, "It is precisely because God does not repent concerning evil..."

Ah yes, EVIL.

I wonder, what was evil about eating a peice of fruit? That's the "evil" that got us all in this mess, right? It was some naked hoe wrapping her lips around some damned fruit and then sticking it in her nudist boy friend’s mouth, right?

Being naked, filthy, and ignorant isn't a sin, but eating a piece of fruit -- that's radically evil!

Basically, according to Xtianity, evil is disobeying the supposed commands of GOD. If GOD commands killing, raping, pillaging and destroying, then EVIL is refusing to do those things. If GOD commands dogmatic belief in a bunch of silly myths and/or slavering adherence to a big set of contradictory religious doctrines, then EVIL is simply disbelief.

God can't repent of EVIL because whatever HE does is good (no matter what that might be) and electing to not follow along with even a single one of HIS commands, a person is labeled as EVIL.

To consider: If EVIL is evil regardless of whether GOD commands it, God is irrelevant to the discussion as even HE answers to some standard outside of HIMSELF. If, however, disobedience to the arbitrary commands of GOD is all that defines EVIL, then good and evil have no real meaning whatsoever.
Nina said…
Dogeatdog
You said in the first post that death is the punishment for sinning. I think you meant hell. We all die, good and bad.
OOPS - kind of makes your whole point stupid!
Nina
leotracks said…
I think it is clear that people like dogshit and others are just mean-spirited sadistic assholes who get off on the idea of eternal torment for other people. They are small, abusive little men who don't have the guts or strength to accomplish anything on their own, and their impotence makes them crave the vicarious joy of inflicting pain.

Yes, I have issues as well.
boomSLANG said…
godeatgod...I guess I need to just leave it["it"..i.e..insert anything at all] up to God then.

Hey there, little man,

Aside from committing an existential fallacy, the philosophy of "leaving" anything to an "omniscient" being is utterly non-sensical and redundant, even if such a being existed. That's right, there's no sense, whatsoever, in "leaving" any decision to a being who has already determined all of its future decisions/choices. And besides, even if your biblegod had "free will", your premise is still circular, i.e.. "win/win". After all, the Christian leaves a decision up to "God", and if the outcome is "good", it's a "miracle intervention", and if the outcome is "bad", it was part of "God's plan". The inventers of the Christian biblegod merely created a religious figurehead whom they can praise in literally any situation.

godeatgod...Remember it starts with repentance (as you know)

No; it starts with evidence(as you evidently don't know) 'Got any?

godeatgod...We must be sorry first for what we have done wrong before the healing(rebirth) can begin.

You seem to be mindlessly repeating what you've been taught(imagine that). But tell me, have you ever actually examined these biblical philosophies of yours? Honestly now, should we hold you and your family members responsible because Hitler slaughtered Jews? Or would you see that idea as an insanely absurd injustice? I'm going to go out on a limb, and say the latter, and if so, then great, because then you have very accurate idea of what we think of your ridiculous little talking-snake-in-the-garden-convinced-some-ignorant-couple-to-eat-fruit-and-now-we-are-all-responsible, parable. Simply put: Bull$h*t.

godeatgod...Also keep in mind even God repents and he will repent that he ever made any of you and cherish the fact that you all understand His plan for salvation.

Um, if your biblegod "repented" that he ever made us... why, then, didn't it simply scrap "Adam & Eve" on the spot, and start over? That sounds a little more logical than being all pissed-off and distraught that two people did something against its wishes, but yet, letting them multiply into many people, and then drowning the whole lot of them.

If you burn a batch of cookies, do you start over?..or do you throw six more dozen cookies in the oven until those burn too, before you start over? In other words, I would expect the Creator of the Universe to have some common sense.....but evidently, I guess you don't hold "Him" to that standard, do you?(rhetorically asked)

godeatgod...There is no contradiction, of course. The words translated "repent" in both Old and New Testaments are used of actions which indicate outwardly that a "change of mind" has occurred inwardly.

Lol! What a remarkable display of weasle-wording...i.e..what blantant display of equivocation, in an attempt to make something illogical sound logical.

It's really simple: If your biblegod has the "free will" to reconsider; to rethink; to reevaluate; to feel regret concerning choices it made, then said being is NOT "UNchanging". You cannot have it both ways, Christian.

godeatgod...God has greatly blessed America in the past, but America’s people have drastically changed in recent years.

If "God has greatly blessed" us, but yet, you feel that America is not doing the "Will of God", then God's "blessings" must be impotent against our "free will"....thus, it is a complete and utter waste of time to say "God bless America" from this point forward. It is likewise pointless to "pray".

Either the "will of man" takes precedence, or the "Will of god" takes precedence. Either way, "Christianity" loses.
Stephen C said…
Good morning everybody,

Hey, it occurs to me that whenever we actually respond to the garbled nonsense posted by rut-minded 'dogeedog', we're jumping through the needy hoops that his/her pious narcissist ego demands.
ANY attention will do.
Just as he/she planned.
Then he/she can, comfort and stroke themselves to smug satisfaction with the convinction that they are justly righteous, special, chosen, misunderstood, courageous, selfless and, the big prize, martyred.
God knows, they tried!
It's such shamelessly transparent, wanky behaviour.
Embarassing really.
Blecchhh...
Anonymous said…
boomSLANG: "No; it starts with evidence(as you evidently don't know) 'Got any?"

Deny it all you want but Jesus does exist and He is God and he did what he did to save our souls. The Bible itself is a extremely reliable and historical record of events and years later it was backed up with documents saying the same things called the Dead sea scrolls, but other documents mentioned Jesus also.

Example: Josephus, the famed Jewish historian, lived from A.D. 37 to 95. He seems to record the death and resurrection of Jesus as a fact. In Vol. II, Book XVIII, Chap. III, page 3 of his Jewish Antiquities, he wrote: “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man: for He was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those that loved Him at the first did not forsake Him; for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him, are not extinct at this day.”
Jim Arvo said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jim Arvo said…
Who would like the honor of explaining to dogeatdogblack why the Josephus passage is almost certainly a late (4th century) interpolation?

In fact, dogeatdogblack, you could save us all a little time if you just Google the words "Josephus interpolation", and spend a few hours reading. Let us know when you've done that and we'll discuss it, okay?
Jim Arvo said…
dogeatdogblack said "Deny it all you want but Jesus does exist and He is God..."

Now, I realize that BoomSLANG's question was convoluted and extremely difficult to understand, so please allow me to restate it more simply: Got any evidence to back that up?
xrayman said…
Jim Arvo,

WTFHYB
Where the fuck have you been?

Your words of wisdom have been few and far between as of late.

Here is a basic question I have about Jesus. Is he a guy who turns the other cheek? Or is he an eye for an eye guy? He can't be both and if he is the turn the other cheek guy, then no one would be in Hell would they?
Anonymous said…
Wow, your "evidence" is a passage by a scholar whose accuracy is greatly suspect, who couldn't even get his own geneology straight, and whose works were in the hands of the church for hundreds of years before we ever read them.

Once again, open your brain, examine the "facts" that you're told instead of parroting them here, and maybe you can actually create a dialogue.

Historical texts (unless there were a great number of them with few or no mistakes at all, and which had NOT been passed down through a church which wielded great political power) cannot make up for the gaping holes in logic that christianity leaves us. First, read the Bible. Look at the geneologies. They don't work out and they don't match up.

Then compare the gospels. Once again, you'll find a lot of little contradictions (Judas' death for instance).

Now, ask yourself which is more likely. The idea that the Word of God, a document that is supposed to be completely infallable, has constant and continuing mistakes, or the idea that maybe your friend's work was tampered with.

Then ask Jesus which makes sense, and wait until you hear a real voice explain it to you.

I'm sure you'll find a way to rationalize all of this away, since I haven't "proven" anything. But maybe instead of rationalizing, you could actually think about it for a moment, actually consider what I'm saying, and decide for yourself which is more probable.
Dave8 said…
DEDB, while you attempt to gather some evidence; let's get past the bible as a potential exhibit, at the onset - using simple logic.

If the Christian God character is omniscient and knows everything that has, is, and will ever be... then what "purpose" does the bible serve?

Let's be clear. An omniscient God already knows if you are saved or not, and what your "end-state" will be upon death; the sheer fact that such an entity would know this, "prevents" you from doing anything that would "change" your destiny.

So, if you concede your God character to "Not" be "Omniscient", then I'd be willing to "inspect" your bible for deitical authenticity.

If you conceded your God character to be "Omniscient", then I would prefer evidence of the God that you speak of; not the sterile book you refer to.

Take a pick.
Refractor said…
Question was: "He can't be both and if he is the turn the other cheek guy, then no one would be in Hell would they?"

Your time on earth is a time of mercy. Those that love Him know the truth about our eternal existence and knowing this truth, we all endeavor to glorify God with acts of love and of mercy. We are taught to turn the other cheek by our Lord because our sacrifices, our acts of faith & love, are gifts that we give to Him. We give them because we want to be like Him in the way we love and are merciful. These acts of faith that we give to the Lord He accepts and if it’s God's will, He returns these gifts to us in the way of graces. Graces that may cause the conversion of the one that hurt us or the conversion of others.

The greatest miracle of all is the turning of one's heart towards God (ie. a conversion). A conversion is possible for everyone if they admit of their guilt and accept the words of Jesus as being the truth.

In the end, once we die, the concept of eternity will be obvious to us and we will all realize that this new dimension, the spiritual dimension, is the real dimension. Our choices in this life are gravely important as they will decide our eternal destination.

To reject Jesus, the Son of God, your entire life will likely leave you in a place far removed from God. To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love. If we had a glimpse of what true darkness is like, we'd realize that we'd never ever wish Hell on anyone. Not even Hitler.

Your time of mercy is now, in this life, and your choice will be eternal. God entered time and space to turn the other cheek as a sacrifice that atones for your sins and my sins. God, in eternity, does not turn the other cheek again. To reject Christ until the end will mean that you are left with His justice. As great is His mercy, also great is His justice.

The beauty for those of us that love Jesus, is that we trust Him completely and don't worry ourselves with mysteries that are contrary to our natural minds. Many of you will take the prideful stance to reject Him because of the doctrine of Hell. Which is so terribly sad because you actually don’t need to go to Hell if you simply accept Him?

If you are not able to acknowledge your sins because your heart is filled with various emotions that block this capacity, I suggest you take a leap of faith. I suggest you call out to the Lord for help with sincerity and I assure you, you’ll receive it. Call out His name, Jesus Christ, with your lips and never doubt. God, the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon.

God bless.
Dave8 said…
Refractor, care to help out DEDB?

We are all just seeking simple answers to support your emotional claims that lack anything credible beyond your opinion.

So, can you attempt to gather some evidence for your comments?

Let's get past the bible as a potential exhibit, at the onset - using simple logic.

If the Christian God character is omniscient and knows everything that has, is, and will ever be... then what "purpose" does the bible serve?

Let's be clear. An omniscient God already knows if you are saved or not, and what your "end-state" will be upon death; the sheer fact that such an entity would know this, "prevents" you from doing anything that would "change" your destiny.

So, if you concede your God character to "Not" be "Omniscient", then I'd be willing to "inspect" your bible for deitical authenticity.

If you conceded your God character to be "Omniscient", then I would prefer evidence of the God that you speak of; not the sterile book you refer to.

Take a pick, and let's discuss your imaginative (evidence-less) opinion.
.:webmaster:. said…
Refractor (the latest in a long list of names by one of our regular Christian fanatical posters) blathered, "We all endeavor to glorify God with acts of love and of mercy."

No. My acts of love and mercy toward other human beings are generated out of my own human heart for the sake of other human beings. An imaginary, wrathful deity that threatens horrific torment to people who hold different opinions as to its existence, is not on my list of things worth acknowledging or respecting. Sorry.

Refractor rambled on, "To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love"

That's silly. I am completely peaceful, have lots of hope, and have a life filled with people who love me. Your statement is false.

Refractor rattled on and on, "In the end, once we die, the concept of eternity will be obvious to us and we will all realize that this new dimension, the spiritual dimension, is the real dimension. Our choices in this life are gravely important as they will decide our eternal destination."

And why would this be true. What possible difference could it make whether we are breathing air or not? Why is it that you think that after we take our last breath we are confined to everlasting torment for disbelief? I'm sorry, but the whole concept of eternal punishment for the temporal "sin" of skepticism is just plain retarded. It is at best an extremely poor and undeveloped concept of justice. It sounds like something created by simpletons for simpletons.

Oh, and let's not forget this: BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID. Why be afraid, because GOD loves you! It makes no sense at all.

Refractor admitted, "We [...] don't worry ourselves with mysteries that are contrary to our natural minds."

Right, you turn off your minds and stop thinking. Got it. You'll understand, I hope, if I shake in revulsion at such an idea.

Refarctor nonsensically wrote, "Many of you will take the prideful stance to reject Him because of the doctrine of Hell"

Yes, yes. Those who don't quake when a religious nut talks about retributive horror for the terrible sin of using their minds are prideful. No doubt they are arrogant as well. Refract-o-man, it's called self confidence, and it's generally considered a good sign of mental health to be self confident. I'm sorry you feel so insecure that you need an invisible friend to help you get through the day. Wow.

Refractor promised, "Call out His name, Jesus Christ, with your lips and never doubt. God, the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon."

Jesus Christ, reveal yourself to me! I beg you with all my heart and soul. I ask you with all the sincerity I can muster that you reveal yourself to me. And when you do, I'll confess it here before all the world!

Refractor, good buddy, I'll let you know what happens.

How long is very soon? Would 2,000 years count as very soon in your mind, or should I expect something this century?
Anonymous said…
OK one at a time here. I will keep reading and try to answer everyone's questions. I will pick what I know and research what I don't. This one jumped out and is the easiest so I will answer and read on.

the-walruss said "Then compare the gospels. Once again, you'll find a lot of little contradictions (Judas' death for instance)."

How did Judas die, by hanging or falling down? (Matthew 27:3-8 and Acts 1:16-19)

By hanging (Matthew 27:3-8) - "Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" 5And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood." 7And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."

By falling (Acts 1:16-19) - "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. In fact, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.

Also, notice that Matt. 27:3-8 tells us specifically how Judas died, by hanging. Acts 1:16-19 merely tells us that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out. Acts does not tell us that this is the means of his death where Matthew does.
Astreja said…
Refractor: "Those that love Him know the truth about our eternal existence..."

What eternal existence? Unsupported assertion.

"To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love."

Complete rubbish.

"Which is so terribly sad because you actually don’t need to go to Hell if you simply accept Him?"

I, for one, am unable to accept a blood sacrifice as a good thing. Even if it actually happened, I am honour-bound to reject it because I consider substitutionary atonement to be the epitome of immorality.

"I suggest you call out to the Lord for help with sincerity and I assure you, you’ll receive it."

What part of Ex-Christian do you not comprehend? Most of us here did indeed call out and got no help and no answer. Nothing. And, unless you happen to *be* this mythical 'lord', you are not in a position to assure us of anything.

Your faith is just as vulnerable to going *poof*, Refractor. Only a matter of time. Either that, or the doubts that you've shoehorned into the dusty back corners of your mind will manifest as a psychological condition that profoundly screws up your life. (If it hasn't already done so, that is.)

My advice to you is to face the prospect that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong about the things you believe.
.:webmaster:. said…
Dog face,

That is the usual apologetic for the Judas death Bible difficulty, but it's an unsatisfactory answer. The obvious reality is that there were different stories floating about. One anonymous gospel author chose one rumor. Another anonymous gospel author chose the other. You can smash the stories together all you like, but that's a disingenuous approach. In no other part of life do we smash contradictory stories together to make a homogeneous whole. I challenge you to give me one example outside Biblical apologetics where it is considered a good idea to smash together contradictory "eye witness accounts" to come up with the real story.

Now, let's really examine the stories: Matthew 27:3-8 -- "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood."

"What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day."


Acts 1, 18-19 -- "18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"

So who bought the field? Was it the priests or was it Judas? Was it that everyone heard about Judas busting a gut in the field he'd purchased, so they called it the Field of Blood? Or was it called the Field of Blood because the priests bought it with blood money ?

No matter how hard you try, these are two different stories that cannot be harmonized without severely twisting the obvious intent of the writer.

As is typical with stories of this nature, the facts are jumbled in people's memories. Since these things were written down decades after they happened (if they even did happen), it's not surprising that there are contradictions. These types of contradictions do damage to the myth of infallibility, however.

If you were honest with yourself, you'd see the contradiction. Since you must at all costs protect the doctrine of Biblical infallibility, you'll willingly blind yourself to the obvious.
boomSLANG said…
"Marc", "Yogi", "Unblinded", "Computer", "Dan Marvin", "Passerby", or someone equally obstinate; equally ignorant; equally annoying...and equally unwilling/unable to listen to any point of view that opposes theirs, dropped in and gave us 8 'wonderful' paragraphs of bare assertion/existential fallacies, and philosophical contradictions.

For instance, we've seen this "gem" from time-to-time...

Our choices in this life are gravely important as they will decide our eternal destination.

..::yawn::

Um, by "choices", you must mean, our collective "choices", yes Dipshit? Yes, of course, because the bottom line of the Christian doctrine is belief. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS---not "Divine Laws"; not "Commandments"; not following the bible; not falling short of "God's Glory"; not "prayer"....NOTHING but belief, because ultimately, "belief" trumps everything.

BTW, "eternal" and "destination" conflict, as "destination" implies ending point; "eternal" implies no end. Thought you'd like to be reminded of that, m'kay Dipshit?
Anonymous said…
Webmaster said "Refractor rambled on, "To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love"

Webmasters response was "That's silly."

Your true self is showing webmaster. Refractor's comment was spot on and you said that's silly? Shame on your for your contempt towards Refractor.

Here I thought I would have to sit for a long time and try to help the confused out and discuss all the points of faith and trust.

Then comes Refractor's input. I must say that was beautiful and heartfelt, and filled with love and true understanding. I feel your kind words and I will say Amen!

Great job Refractor and may God bless you for those gentle words to the lost. I am struggling to express the true love I feel in Jesus but you did it in one comment.

Come on do we really need to go further then this. You have ALL the information you need. Take the red pill and never look back. You know in your conscience there is something more out there. Try not to be so impatient and all your questions will be answered but you must TRUST Him with the reins. Trust Him as Lord our Father.
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said…
Jesus never existed
This I know
For the Bible tells me so
Astreja said…
DeDB: "Come on do we really need to go further then this. You have ALL the information you need."

Actually, we do.

Unfortunately, the information that we have clearly indicates that your religion is preposterous.

And what gives with this handful of blue pills with the word 'red' written in crayon?
Dave8 said…
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in... on the two J's.

"The Betrayal of Jesus - Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus, ranks as the most hated and despised character in the Bible with the possible exception of Satan. Is such intense loathing justified, or is Judas the victim of biased reporting? Interestingly enough the sole source of information on Judas is the New Testament gospels and the Book of Acts all of which were written long after the events allegedly took place. He receives not a single mention mention in the writings of Paul, the Gospel of Thomas, the reconstructed document, Quelle (Q) or the Didache.

Judas first appears in the nineteenth verse of the third chapter of the Gospel of Mark, the oldest of the canonical gospels, where he is appointed by Jesus as one of the twelve apostles. In this passage we are tipped off in advance of Judas’ treachery. Matthew and Luke repeat Mark almost verbatim, however, the author of John adds something. In John 6:70-71 Jesus announces that one of the twelve, Judas, is a devil. In John 12:4-6 we learn of another of Judas’ character flaws. He was also a thief.

As was predicted, Judas went to the chief priests and offered to identify Jesus. They accepted his offer and agreed to pay him thirty pieces of silver which brings up another perplexing question. Why would the authorities pay to have someone pointed out to them whom they already knew? In Matthew 26:55 Jesus says to those who came to arrest him, "I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, yet ye laid no hold on me".

Judas proceeds to identify Jesus by way of that infamous kiss, and that’s the last we hear of him in the gospels of Mark, Luke and John. However, the author of Matthew doesn’t let it drop there. Apparently Judas’ conscience got the better of him because according to Matthew 27:3-5 he made a sincere attempt to repent but was denied forgiveness. In a gesture of frustration he returned the money and went and hanged himself. Matthew goes on to say that the chief priests and the elders used the money to buy a piece of land. Because it was bought with blood money, the land became known as "The Field of Blood".

In Matthew 18:21-22 when Peter came to him, and asked, “Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times?” Jesus replied, "I say not unto thee, until seven times: but, until seventy times seven". Wasn’t Jesus obligated by his own words to forgive Judas? But instead of forgiving him, Jesus openly cursed Judas when during Passover Seder (Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21) he said, "But woe to that one by whom the son of man is betrayed for it would have been better for him had he never been born". Contrary to Peter, Judas never denied Jesus. While his action may not have been all together ethical, Judas, unlike Peter, committed neither apostasy nor blasphemy, the two unforgivable sins.

Had the Judas story ended with the betrayal followed by the suicide everything might have been hunky-dory, but the writer of Acts couldn't leave well enough alone. In 1:15-19 he tells us that Judas didn't give the money back; he invested it in real estate. We also learn that Judas didn’t commit suicide; his death was accidental. Because of the messiness of this accident, the property became known as (you guessed it) "The Field of Blood". So, did Judas commit suicide as the writer of Matthew claims or was his death an accident as we are told in Acts? Also, was this the same land that the priests bought, or were there two fields of blood? But, it gets worse.

Mark 16:14 and Luke 24:33 state that following his resurrection Jesus appeared to "the eleven". Who was missing? After all that had transpired one would just naturally think it was Judas. Apparently not, because in John 20:24 we learn that the missing apostle was Thomas. Therefore the eleven had to include Judas. To further confound the reader, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:5 that following his resurrection Jesus was seen by “the twelve.” This had to include Judas because it wasn't until after the ascension, some forty days after the resurrection, that another person, Matthias, was voted in to replace Judas (Acts 1:26). So, apparently Judas neither committed suicide nor died by accident. In Acts 1:25 we are told that Judas "turned aside to go to his own place".

Another clue confirming the absence of the Judas story in the earliest Christian documents occurs in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30. Here Jesus tells his apostles that they will “sit on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” No exception is made for Judas even though Jesus was aware of his impending betrayal. The answer may lie in the fact that the source of these verses is Q (QS 62). Q predates the gospels and is considered to be one of the earliest Christian documents. It was obviously written before Judas and the betrayal story was invented by the writer of Mark.

For centuries Judas Iscariot has been held up as the archetypical traitor, the exemplar of treachery, the quintessential turncoat. This is strange indeed when one considers Acts 1:16. Here the apostle Peter tells us, "This scripture (Psalm 69:25) must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus". So according to Peter, Judas' betrayal was a part of God's grand plan all along. Not only did Judas serve as a vehicle through which key Old Testament prophecy might be fulfilled, it was by way of his betrayal that Jesus was able to complete his earthly mission. One might say that it was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it. Judas was in reality an enabler. Instead of hating and reviling him, Christians should appreciate Judas’ contribution as an indispensable element of the passion story.

The story of Judas Iscariot, although obvious fiction, has lead to some tragic consequences. Judas is deliberately portrayed as a caricature intended to confirm the very worst misconceptions about the Jewish people. As a result, for almost two thousand years the Jews have been unjustly persecuted and vilified because their forefathers were accused of slaying Jesus, a mythical god-man whose very existence remains highly questionable. How long must superstition with all its evils rule and curse the modern world? How long must people be held hostage to what is obviously a myth and nothing more?"
http://www.inu.net/skeptic/ntforge.html
Anonymous said…
I rebuke the evil that is Astreja, boomSLANG, and webmaster.

Your contempt is disgusting and beyond approach, all of you. I need a shower to wash this funk off of me. Yuck!

Hay Refractor, these people are like crack addicts trying to drag you down (literally!) while you try to help them. They don't want answerers the want company (down there) the gig is up it's time to rebuke this evil.

To webmaster and friends: Get behind me Satan!
Astreja said…
(smiles quietly to Herself) This is hilarious. Mead, anyone?
Anonymous said…
Dear DogEatDogBlack,

Modern biblical scholars have discredited Josephus' reference to Jesus on several grounds.

Earl Doherty in "The Jesus Puzzle" devotes 17 pages to Josephus' two mentions of Jesus and, in a nutshell, says that Josephus was a Jew working for the Romans in Rome and would have had no sympathy for Christians. Therefore, he would not have used such laudatory comments like, "wise man," "wonderful works," "the truth with pleasure," "He was the Christ." These descriptions are quite subjective and would not have reflected Josephus' personal opinion.

Burton Mack in "Who Wrote the New Testament?" argued it this way:

1) Josephus' mention of Jesus was too short for such an (alleged)major event. Far less important events were given much more emphasis in his writings.

2) The rhetorical style of that single paragraph was different from Josephus' usual rhetorical style.

3) The paragraph was not thematically linked to the paragraphs before and after - not contextual.

Other biblical scholars like G.A. Wells give similar arguments.

It is agreed upon by modern biblical scholars (Mack, Doherty, Wells, and others) that the paragraph in question was probably not written by Josephus - probably a later insertion by a pious Christian copyist.

In addition, the first century Christians did not believe that Jesus had actually set foot on earth. They believed in a heavenly Jesus.

If you read Paul's Epistles, you will find that there is no mention of the events found in the Gospels: no Bethlehem, no Nazareth, no Sermon on the Mount, no conversations with Pharisees, no Gethsemane, no Calvary, no Joseph of Arimathea. Paul apparently did not know of these things.

When Paul quotes Jesus, he doesn't refer to his teachings in the Gospels, but to Isaiah (Hebrews 2:12) Did Paul not know of the teachings of Jesus found in the gospels?

Also, Paul says that what he knows of Jesus entirely comes from personal revelation (Gal.1:12) despite the fact that Paul claims to have stayed with Peter and James (the disciples who allegedly lived with Jesus day and night for three years) for 15 days (Gal.1:18,19).

Don't you think that Peter and James could have told Paul something about Jesus if Jesus had actually come to the earth? Apparently, Peter and James didn't know anything about Jesus' life on earth either.

According to Paul, how was Jesus made known? By scriptures and God's command (Rom. 16:25,26). What about his three year career on earth? Also, Paul says,"my gospel", not "the gospel" implying that it originated from him, not Jesus.

Yes, it seems as though Paul sees himself as the chief arbiter of Christians' relationship with Jesus: "I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Cor. 11:2)(NIV)

Also, "If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal.1:9)(NIV) Why did Paul think that he should have a monopoly on the gospel? Wouldn't the knowledge of Jesus' three year career attest to the true gospel?

Paul apparently puts himself on the same level as Peter. He claims to have seen Jesus personally (1 Cor. 9:1). Furthermore, Paul has the audacity to "oppose him to his face" (Gal.2:11) (It was a disagreement over circumcision.)

Evidently, Paul didn't know that Peter had lived with Jesus day and night for three years and that Jesus claimed that he was "the rock upon which I build my church." Paul didn't recognize Peter's authority because Paul didn't know that Jesus had come to earth. (And neither did Peter, evidently.)

The epistles do not mention Jesus return (with one exception, which I will discuss below). They mention the coming of Jesus. Look up these verses: 1 Cor.16:22, Phil 1:6, Phil 3:20, 2 Thess.1:7, 1 Peter 1:7
They are all anticipating the coming of the Lord. They do not say "come back," "come again," or "return." They say "come."

Hebrews 8 and 9 most clearly demonstrate that the first century Christians did not believe that Jesus ever set foot on earth.
"If he had been on earth, he would not even have been a priest ..." (Heb. 8:4)(NEB) or "If he were on earth, he would not be a priest ..." (NIV)

Furthermore, Jesus' sacrifice was in heaven, not on earth (Heb.9:11-14), (Heb.9:24,25). It says that Jesus will come again (Heb. 9:28). His first coming was in heaven, and his second coming will also be in heaven "... to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thess. 4:17). It appears that Jesus never intends to set foot on earth.

What about the last supper and the death and resurrection? According to first century Christian thinking, all of that happened in heaven, too. It was quite common for other gods that were popular in the Mediterranean at the time to undergo death and resurrection in heaven, for heavenly beings had physical bodies(1 Cor.15:35-49). For example, Dionysus was born of a virgin, had meals including raw meat and wine, was murdered, and resurrected, all in the mythical, heavenly realm. The god Attis was another one who died and was resurrected in the mythical, heavenly realm, and there were a host of others. (http://www.pantheon.org/)

How did Paul know about the last supper? "For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: ..." (1 Cor. 11:23). He received it directly from Jesus, by revelation, it was not an objective historical fact.

At the end of the first century, the writers of the gospels probably took information from Paul concerning the last supper, death, and resurrection, as well as the names of the apostles, and incorporated it into their gospel myths.

The first century Christians thought of Jesus as heavenly, mythical and never thought that Jesus set foot on earth. Why should you or I?
sconnor said…
Hey dog,

I noticed you conveniently didn't address the webmasters more specific charges of contradiction of Judas' death -- still researching? Or maybe it was satan who jumbled up all the words to confuse the unbeliever or to test the true believer.

Dog breath said, Jesus does exist and He is God

The idea that Jesus is god, did not come to fruition until the council of Nicea in 325 CE where it was asserted, as a matter of doctrine, that Jesus was equally the enfleshment of the divine -- Jesus had in effect become to be considered god.

This is something Jesus never claimed nor would he have understood.
The verses you probably use to show Jesus and god were one are far and few in between and mostly come from the unique perspective of the author of John. The verses at hand are usually quoted out of context to show a metaphysical relationship with god but other more simplified interpretations could be understood. For instance when Jesus said, "the Father and I are one", could mean they are on the same page, that Jesus and god are thinking the same way -- not in a metaphysical sense -- but Jesus is attuned or thinks he believes the way god should be thinking. He is expressing that his agenda is synchronous with god's will and not that he is declaring he is god.

Also there are a few verses that contradict Jesus being god such as,
Matthew 19:17 and Mark 10:18 -- And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
John 14:28 -- My Father is greater than I.
1Timothy 2:5 -- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
John 20:17 -- I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Do you hear that sound, dog? It's the sound of your delusional religion crumbling around you.

There coming to take you away, there coming to take you away, to the funny farm where everything is happy and good HAAHAAAHHHAAAHOOOHEEEHEE HOO HA to the funny farm!

--S.
Dave8 said…
Again, DEDB or Refractor (same individual - likely)... care to take the logic test?

Pick One:
1-The Christian God character is Omniscient = You have no "free will", and thus, no ability to "change" your destiny to heaven or hell. The bible is useless to anyone for guidance.

2-The Christian God character isn't Omniscient = Then, the bible is useless to anyone who seeks guidance on matters of an "Eternal" nature. That includes "all" subjects that are presented by Christianity, in an Eternal context, to include; The Eternally Divine Christian God Character, Eternal sin, Eternal Heaven, Eternal Hell, etc. These things, we can 'know' nothing about, if the Christian God isn't Omniscient.

So, again DEDB/Refractor... which "position" do you take, that undermines the Bible’s credibility as a Divine Guide/Authority? If the Bible’s credibility is undermined, then… it would be dishonest to suggest it is “evidence” for an Omniscient/Eternal God, right.
dogeatdogblack wrote:
"To webmaster and friends: Get behind me Satan! "
----

Hey Dog Face,

1. Please add me to your list of names. I feel left out here. Thanks!!

2. Did anyone ever wonder why xtians will say "Get BEHIND me Satan"???
All I can say is that the very LAST PLACE I would want an enemy of mine, is BEHIND ME.
Wouldn't it be for more appropriate to be face-to-face with one's enemy.
Okay, maybe it's just me.... who would want things that way?

3. Taking a shower won't remove the dog poo from you anymore than it can remove your god sins, Doggie-Breath. The only remedy is to rid your mind of the god dog-crap that is fouling up your mind, is to replace that crap with intelligence and logic.


ATF (Who wonders if Satan would be in front of me, if I just turn around really really quickly)
Lynn said…
Wow this is great!! Rebuking!! and getting thee behind me!! You know, we'd love to get behind you, but you just won't leave. Why can't you disengage? It's because there is a small but growing awareness in you that all you believe is simply untrue, certainly logically, more immediately, Christianity has proven itself untrue experientially. It just does not add up. Unbelievers are not the cackling evil monsters that Christians imagine them to be, isn't that just IRRITATING!!! And plenty of xtians molest their children beat their wives, lie to the boss. Wait, I know this one - they're not real xtians. Why not, don't Christians sin? Yes they do, but they are washed by the blood of the lamb. Well fine,washed, not washed, they are still perpetuating abuse and their xtianity has made no change in their lives. In my view, the only time that the church has changed anything is when the unbelievers were making them look bad. You know, by forming food banks to actually feed people, and medical clinics to actually keep them healthy. So wow, can I be rebuked, too? Please oh please?
Stephen C said…
You silly, silly conceited dog.

Pretending that you KNOW the mind of your unknowable god.
Who the hell do you think you are?
(Be very afraid, because your god might smite you for being so uppity.)

And, insisting that YOU KNOW, with absolutely NO EVIDENCE, that there is an afterlife of rewards and punishments. Vile, torturing liar!
But hey, here's the grace, when you're dead you won't be disappointed that there are no rewards or punishments,
BECAUSE ALL YOU'LL BE IS DEAD.

Honestly, this stiff-necked arrogance you display is breath-takingly disgusting. And really hugely disgusting because your righteous, muddle-headed delusion makes you feel entitled to damage the questing, absorbent, trusting minds of children with this maniacal, irresponsible and threatening rubbish.

AND FINALLY, as for you whining,
"Hay Refractor, these people are like crack addicts trying to drag you down (literally!)WHILE YOU TRY TO HELP THEM."

Wait until you're fucking asked!

I thank sweet sanity for the straight talking clarity of the Ex-Christians on this marvellous site.

Sorry, this has been more of a rant than a comment.
Anonymous said…
ATF,
I feel left out, too. Why hasn't Snoopy condemned me to hell like the others? Didn't I do a good job?
I'll keep trying.
Jackie said…
Hey Refractor and dogeat,
I was a christian for 29 years and have only been an ex-christian for 6 months, but in those short 6 months I have already experienced more peace than I ever did as a christian! And please dont try to say I wasn't a real christian, I was more real than most of the christians that are out there now! And I was a missionary dammit!!

Refractor promised, "Call out His name, Jesus Christ, with your lips and never doubt. God, the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon.

Well because I was a christian so long, it is taking some time to rid the brainwashing paralysing fear of hell from my mind. Occasionally it creeps back in, I know it is a completely irrational fear, but it still freaks me a little bit in those times..

So, I do cry out to god... whenever I have that fear... I ask god to reveal himself to me...
And he never does!
Why doesn't he??
If he did, then I would believe and there would be no problem.....
Why doesn't he reveal himself to me?? either he doesnt want to....
or, he doesnt exsist!
Hells Bells said…
I keep wondering how these Christians would disprove the existence of Allah in a way that (a) doesn't rely totally on the Bible and (b) couldn't be used to disprove the existence of the Christian god.

I've posted my testimony here before. In summary, I became a Christian at 13. I believed I saw angels. I believed I heard God. I went to church for 25 years, ending up leading small groups and main church worship. Yet, when the "disorder" that I've had all my life eventually became too difficult to ignore, causing mental collapse, the church kicked me out and disowned me.

I tried to continue to believe on my own for another 4 years, trying to work out why I believed what I believed, and eventually, last year, came to the conclusion that everything I'd been told about Christianity was absolute rubbish. Instead of peace and love, I experienced hatred and exclusion from the church and some "non-affiliated" Christians. It's all based on manipulative lies and half-truths.

I am more at peace with myself now than I have ever been. My family has grown closer and more loving. While sad that, at some point, my existence will just stop, my loss of belief has motivated me to actually do something with my life, and removed the fear of going to hell.

There simply is no evidence whatsoever for the Christian god, any more than there is no evidence for the existence of Allah, Thor, Zeus and Osiris. I don't know why Christians simply can't see that - and I don't know why I couldn't either for over 30 years.
Refractor said…
When I say, “the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon” it does not mean you should put Him to the test. A sincere plea for help to Jesus would never result in someone re-posting with “Oh, well. I tried but nothing happened!”. This is testing the Lord and such a comment implies that you had zero sincerity when calling out to Him. I asked you all to plead with your creator with your lips (ie. out loud) and to NEVER doubt. Your faith will save you.

There is more to this life and as calloused as your heart may be, you know it. He’s ready to forgive all your sins, all you need to do is ask. If Christianity is nothing but rubbish to all of you, it’s because of the graveness of your sins.

God is not malicious or a tyrant, He is a God of Love that wants everyone to be with Him in the end. If, God forbid, you should reject Him until the end, you will know for eternity that it was your rejection that separated you from Him. I’m begging you to please don’t let this happen to you…

Hi DeDB,
I fear there’s not much else we can say. Many of these people listen only to the ugliness that they’ve nurtured for many years. The best we can do is to pray and sacrifice. If more and more Christians plead with God for conversions, I have complete confidence that He’ll convert many more people.

May God bless you all.
Anonymous said…
Hells Bells,
I can relate. I never saw angels, but I tried to many times. I was always envious of those Christians who could.

Clearing my mind of the silliness that we call Christianity is the best thing that ever happened to me.
Jackie said…
Hey Refractor,
I was trying to be polite before, but you've pissed me off too much. You're full of bullshit!

I have never put god to the test. When I cry out to him it is a sincere plea. How preposterous of you to asume to to know what is going on in MY heart!

No, I don't know that there is more to this life, again you are presuming to know what's in my heart...
I work with disabled kids, all very very disabled, can't contribute to society like the rest of us can. They were born with these disabities.... Either God made them like that on purpose (so he's mean), or he made a mistake (he's not perfect).... Which one is it? Can you answer that one for me Refractor?? I bet you wont answer in a concrete way cos I notice you and dog eat have avoided answering specific, difficult questions.

Refractor said: "God is not malicious or a tyrant, He is a God of Love that wants everyone to be with Him in the end"

Someone who not only creates such a filthy place as hell and sends his own children there for eternity can only be described as malicious and tyrannical!!
And if God is a God of love and he wants everyone to be with him in the end, then why doesnt he just make it happen?? He can he can do what ever the bloody hell he wants. The fact that instead he makes up a ridiculous set of rules that means that most of mankind will end up in hell....says to me that he is not a loving god.

By the way, I'm not atheiest... I just dont believe in a god that would be sch an asshole as to send someone to hell!

The only reason anyone is christian is cause they're scared shitless of hell, not cos they love god.





There is more to this life and as calloused as your heart may be, you know it. He’s ready to forgive all your sins, all you need to do is ask. If Christianity is nothing but rubbish to all of you, it’s because of the graveness of your sins.

God is not malicious or a tyrant, He is a God of Love that wants everyone to be with Him in the end. If, God forbid, you should reject Him until the end, you will know for eternity that it was your rejection that separated you from Him. I’m begging you to please don’t let this happen to you…

Refractor said: If more and more Christians plead with God for conversions, I have complete confidence that He’ll convert many more people.

Interesting that you have to "plead" with god... do you think you're gonna change his mind??? I thought god was unchanging!

I have one last question, to any christian, and dont avoid answering....
Do you think that the average person (ie...your grandmother, your father, your daughter, your neighbour, your best friend) who has lived a life of human errors honestly deserves to be punished for ETERNITY in the most harsh way imaginable?? Look deep into your heart... Do you honestly believe that?? If you do, then you must be a sadist...
Anonymous said…
Refractor,

It's this simple:

faith = delusion

Maybe you'll understand it one day.
.:webmaster:. said…
Marc (whoops, I mean Refractor),

I've come to understand that God does love me more than I can comprehend. I've decided to follow your advice and I will be going on my own personal campaign to spread his love.

Refrac-to-Marc: GOD IS LOVE
.:webmaster:. said…
More for you, Marc (Refractor):

God's amazing love
cipher said…
A sincere plea for help to Jesus would never result in someone re-posting with “Oh, well. I tried but nothing happened!”. This is testing the Lord and such a comment implies that you had zero sincerity when calling out to Him.

You're an addict, Refractor. You're as much an addict as is any alcoholic. You'll say anything - ANYTHING - to protect your little turf of belief. You say that we know the truth in our hearts? In your heart, YOU know the truth - that your "faith" is built upon a house of cards. And you're terrified that it will come falling down.

You and dogmeat aren't trying to convince us; you're trying to convince yourselves. You aren't concerned about our souls; you're perfectly willing that billions should be damned for eternity so that you can have the security blanket for a few brief decades.
You're small, selfish little men.
.:webmaster:. said…
Dogmeat wrote, "Webmaster said 'Refractor rambled on, "To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love'

Webmasters response was 'That's silly.'

Your true self is showing webmaster. Refractor's comment was spot on and you said that's silly? Shame on your for your contempt towards Refractor."


Doggie, Refractor is a Roman Catholic that has posted here for months and months. He keeps changing his moniker, but his posts are all the same. He is like a Canadian Catholic parrot. No, he is a Canadian Catholic parrot.

Something you Christians don't understand is that preaching is not discussing. Preaching is just banging a drum. Neither of you poor deluded fools even for a second considers the possibility that your religion is false, that your god is imaginary, and all your spiritual experiences exist only in your heads.

When contradictions in your holy book are pointed out, you call the person Satan. When someone simply states that your religious platitudes are weak, you call them proud, arrogant, rude, or demonic. You are quick to cast judgmental stones and you sound no different than the religious zealots that your Jesus supposedly rebuked.

Dogbreath, you and Marc can go on your Mary-worshiping, Jesus-cookie-eating way, congratulating yourselves on being the power of God on an ex-Christian website, but my thanks go out to you for making this site more popular by the day. That's what you Christians do, you know. You get people to honestly compare the relative merits of "Just Believe -- Confess -- Take a leap of faith -- Don't give in to your mind..." vs. "Let's objectively consider the evidence and put on our thinking caps to determine if the claims of Christianity are true or not." Those who engage their left hemisphere will, in part thanks to your interesting apologetic approach, eventually de-convert.

You have your purpose here, that's for sure.

And, I have all the peace, hope and love I need. You can keep your god. I don't need HIS peace. And I will not serve a despot who threatens to torture people for refusing to lick his boots and kiss his magical back parts.

Blessed are the ORI (Trinity). Great are the ORI (Trinity)
xrayman said…
Jackie said,

"I work with disabled kids, all very very disabled, can't contribute to society like the rest of us can. They were born with these disabities.... Either God made them like that on purpose (so he's mean), or he made a mistake (he's not perfect).... Which one is it?"

I couldn't agree with you more.

My wife works with severely mentally and emotionally disabled(mostly autistic) adolescents. She tells horror stories of very loving parents giving up on their kids because they simply can't deal with them anymore. What do you do with a six foot 200 pound 16 year old who smears shit all over the place on a daily basis? These kids sometimes grow to be adults in which the only recourse is to sedate them and put them in a padded room. I work at a hospital where I see people who were born (for lack of a better analogy) to be nothing more than poop and pee factories kept alive by breathing machines and feeding tubes. I've also seen babies diagnosed with Leukemia two months after birth.

Yet we hear the cliche' "God doesn't make any mistakes," over and over don't we? What a load of fucking shit.

I would like our two Christian friends to elaborate on the God makes no mistakes subject if they can find the time.

I mean sure most everyone can see how people consider a child with Down Syndrome a gift or a blessing but what purpose could the be an a child who just exists in their own filth?
Anonymous said…
Alright, I've been nothing but kind with you people and you've treated everything I've said with contempt and anger. I lost my faith not because of temptation (though I sometimes wish that had been the way things went... It would have been a lot more fun) but rather when I, a student of God, whose life revolved around those teaching that had been instilled in me since childhood, as a show of faith attempted to read the bible all the way through and reconcile it with the christian position.

I started with the Old Testament. Nearly every word of it rang false. I made it through Genesis with my faith still in tact, by the time I got half way through Exodus, your wrathful, hateful, spiteful Bible God had not only made it perfectly obvious that he was not omniscient, but also that he was a tyrant the likes of which made Hitler look kind.

But modern day christianity isn't based off of that wrathful creature. It's based off of the New Testament, and the teachings of faith and mercy. So I went there instead.

I expected to find comfort and reassurance about my faith. Instead I found four different gospels that told four different stories. The stories didn't add up, they weren't compatible.

That's when I started to notice things. My athiest friends, who I engaged in debate regularly, had more integrety in every part of their life. My Christian friends struggled to rationalize irrational belief systems, and that resulted in their inability to deal with other belief systems. Instead of questioning in the skeptical manner the way the questioned everything else, they simply withdrew, became hardened in their insane beliefs, and refused to hear opposing arguments any further.

It was upsetting. In fact it was earth shattering, and I am just now, 5 years later, finding my balance once again. Five years of believing life had no meaning, and that we have no ability to choose. Five years of believing that if I couldn't trust the one thing I knew to be true (that God watches us all) that I couldn't trust anything. Five years of nihilism.

But now, after a lot of hard work, and with support from those people I came to care about despite their religious affiliations, I am a happy, contended person who doesn't have to call on an insane belief system for meaning. I have meaning right here.

So, Christian trolls who engage me and others like me in argument, only to spit on the idea of civil discourse, my point is this:

I hope just as hard as you pray that you too will be able to one day look at your life objectively, see the inherent contradictions in everything you believe, and one day live a life free of the limitations that you now place on yourself.

Believe me, you're missing out.
cipher said…
I would like our two Christian friends to elaborate on the God makes no mistakes subject if they can find the time.

xrayman, you know what the answer will be - it's our own damn fault. The world is in a fallen state, because of our "sin".

You know, it occurs to me that, from a Christian perspective, these people are actually in better shape than we are. They're barely conscious, so they can't sin, so they're pretty much guaranteed a place in heaven, while it's a foregone conclusion that we're all going to hell. So these troglodytes will use that against you as well.
jimearl said…
Dogmeat wrote: "To be without God is to be without peace, hope and love'

Jimearl: To be without God is to be without speculation, fantasy, and delusions.

I can remember well when I could have written the crap that these two vessels of delusions have written previouly. It makes me soooooooooo happy that I am on this side of the fence that separates reality from delusions.
Dave8 said…
Refractor: "When I say, “the source of Love, will reveal Himself to you very soon” it does not mean you should put Him to the test."

Actually, what your statement means, is that "you" have "ordered" your God character to "reveal" and "deliver" Love like you were ordering pizza to someone's location...

Then, you get upset when people state they haven't received "your" order...

It is not those who "report" on the "failure" of a "delivery" that are doing "anything"... other than being "honest".

Refractor, you make your God character a "slave" to your demands, and then project your frustration at those who report non-delivery - ironic but quaint.

While I have numerous problems with Christians in general, regarding their broken theology; it's irritating to experience the Christian as they role play as God's character.

The Christian who role plays a God character; "thinks" in first person, for their God character - just like Refractor.

Always, able to tell anyone exactly what their God character feels, believes, demands, expects, gives, etc.

Refractor, since you are playing God, can you explain why you failed to show up to the apostles as promised, for your second-coming before they died?

Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

The apostles "died" there Refractor, and "no new kingdom" came to be.

So, here we are a few thousand years later... talking about testing/questioning.

Per Refractor's statements;

If the apostles would have questioned and reported no new kingdom, they would have been accused of "testing" the God character...

If the apostles kept their mouth shut and just believed, they would have died as True Believers - having lived and made decisions in their life based on "lies". In this particular case, they ultimately lived a lie, which caused them suffering, and left them to "die in delusion".
Astreja said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said…
Refractor and DeDB,

You really do have a lot of nerve, coming here to insult us... Questioning our sincerity, accusing us of "testing" your invisible friend, claiming that you possess some absolute Truth, and shitting all over people about whom you know very, very little indeed.

You are a stellar example of the grievous harm that dogmatic religion does to the human mind.

But you, too, shall one day realize that your prayers are answered only by statistical probability or by your own human effort...

...That, all these long years, you've actually been talking to yourself, and not to a god...

...That your nature is not inherently evil, and you don't actually need the 'forgiveness' of your pretend skydaddy...

...And that, although you've wasted much of your life in a much-loved delusion, there's still time to shake it all off and dance in the sunlight before your eyes go dim forever.

No Heaven. No Hell. No eternal life... Only this life, and this moment right now.

Make. It. So.
Anonymous said…
PS. Dogeatdog, you still haven't adressed every contradiction in the judas story.

"[He] returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders"

"this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness."

Hmm... maybe he bought the field with the thirty silver first, then killed the man who sold him the field, and took the money back so that he could return the coins to his elders.

Or maybe when the bible says that he bought the field, what it means is that he gave the money to somebody who bought the field.

Or maybe you could stop jumping through 18 different hoops to make two completely incompatable stories make sense and acknowledge that you've lost this one, the Bible is not infallable, and you should consider alternatives to your beliefs.

Refractor, I can't even adress your argument, since it wasn't an argument, just an eloquently worded way of stating opinion with no factual support.
leotracks said…
Dave8 Said: "They as well only believe 144K folks are going to be allowed to live beyond their bio-death in their concept of Heaven. This means, pre-destination."

You are quite correct Dave; this theory originated with Revelation 14:3-4 where John the devine says that 144,000 living people who are deemed worthy of salvation during the final judgment "did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure." Presumably this means that only virgin men will be allowed into heaven. What a wonderful skydaddy who hates all women, but somehow is full of love.

Or is it full of crap? I get confused sometimes.
Refractor said…
Jackie said: {I have never put god to the test. When I cry out to him it is a sincere plea.}

Jackie said in her previous post: {So, I do cry out to god... whenever I have that fear... I ask god to reveal himself to me...
And he never does!
Why doesn't he??}

Jackie, by your own admission in your previous post, you do put God to the test. Might I suggest that you pray for faith or that you pray to thank God for every good thing in your life?

Jackie said: {Either God made them (disabled children) like that on purpose (so he's mean), or he made a mistake (he's not perfect).... Which one is it? Can you answer that one for me Refractor??}

The answer is sin. If we all obeyed God, He would shower us all with such graces that all suffering would be gone. But, this is not our state, we are sinners and we do desire things that are wrong. We lie, we kill our unborn children, we lust for those that are not our spouse, we smear others for our gain, we hate others that we’ve never met, we hold grudges and reject offers of reconciliation, we are merciless, we sin because our thought life is a hypocrisy to our actual life. Even when we do a good deed, either a charity or time given to a friend, we flaunt it for our own gain. The reason for ALL suffering is sin, ie. Disobedience to God. How do we know we’ve sinned? In the early stages of our sins our conscience causes us to feel shame and guilt. Repeat those same sins enough times and your own conscience will become numb and your moral compass damaged.

If you think your moral compass is in such a mess that it cannot be repaired, please think again. Yours truly was going South when I thought I was going North. My compass was a mess and God has repaired it and it is in a continual state of repair (or maintenance).

The obvious reply to sin being the cause of all suffering, is to ask what sin has a child committed? We may theorize that God is trying to reach the child’s parents or relatives? We may theorize that God is protecting the child from a life of sin and having them die while still in their age of innocence? We may theorize that God can use one suffering child to convert many others? We may also conclude that any and all earthly suffering pales in comparison to being in the glory of God. These children that have now passed away no longer suffer and they now exist in absolute reality, with God. The bottom line is that we can never fully comprehend with our finite mind what God is doing, we must simply trust Him.

Jackie said: {Someone who not only creates such a filthy place as hell and sends his own children there for eternity can only be described as malicious and tyrannical!!}

Do you even recognize that you are judging the creator of the Universe with such a statement? Have you ever looked from every “possible” angle for a solution and concluded that no solution was possible, only to find out that someone had found a solution that was as clear as day once revealed?

I’m not saying that I like the idea of Hell and eternal suffering but I trust the creator of the Universe. If you must reconcile it in your own mind, consider that if God is the source of all good (love, mercy, hope) and that if someone rejects God, the sole Power of life, what are they left with? Take away love, mercy and hope and you’re left with suffering beyond imagination.

Jackie said: {The fact that instead he makes up a ridiculous set of rules that means that most of mankind will end up in hell....says to me that he is not a loving god.}

Have you not noticed that His rules are all founded on love and that you just called them “a ridiculous set of rules”? Jackie, please tell me which commandment can be called ridiculous?

Jackie said: {The only reason anyone is christian is cause they're scared shitless of hell, not cos they love god.}

For me I can safely say that yes, I am scared shitless of hell AND that yes, I truly do love God. No, I am absolutely not coerced into saying that I love God. I actually agree with everything He said about me (sinner) and for this reason, I hope to be eternally grateful for His mercy.

Jackie said: {Interesting that you have to "plead" with god... do you think you're gonna change his mind??? I thought god was unchanging!}

It is God’s will that His creation or more precisely, those that love Him, get to work in His vineyard. He loves us so much that He allows us, by His graces, to be the salt of the earth. Or, you might say, that we can be a source of light for others. You might even say that we Christians, through our obedience to God, hope to simply refract God’s light to others! ;)

Jackie said: {Do you think that the average person (ie...your grandmother, your father, your daughter, your neighbour, your best friend) who has lived a life of human errors honestly deserves to be punished for ETERNITY in the most harsh way imaginable??}

Absolutely not. With my human mind the thought of eternal punishment is next to inconceivable and I would not wish this on anyone. Not Hitler, not Osama and certainly not my family and friends! This is why Christians pray, to keep ourselves in a state of grace and to pray for the salvation of everyone.

Dave8 said: {Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
The apostles "died" there Refractor, and "no new kingdom" came to be.}

If you look at the very next chapter, you’ll see that Peter, James and John did see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. They witnessed Jesus' transfiguration.

Matthew 17
1 After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.

This is presented in an even clearer fashion by Luke:

Luke 9
27 Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
28 About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray.
29 While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white.

God Bless
Dave8 said…
Leotracks, I think it's a load of bunk ;-) Well, that's my vote :-) Cheers.
Anonymous said…
Refractor,
Don't you feel embarrassed to actually admit that you believe in that fairytale?
Anonymous said…
Refractor,
Jesus never existed. The gospels are second century fictions. I'm going to repost my ealier comment in case you missed it:

The first century Christians did not believe that Jesus had actually set foot on earth. They believed in a heavenly Jesus.

If you read Paul's Epistles, you will find that there is no mention of the events found in the Gospels: no Bethlehem, no Nazareth, no Sermon on the Mount, no conversations with Pharisees, no Gethsemane, no Calvary, no Joseph of Arimathea. Paul apparently did not know of these things.

When Paul quotes Jesus, he doesn't refer to his teachings in the Gospels, but to Isaiah (Hebrews 2:12) Did Paul not know of the teachings of Jesus found in the gospels?

Also, Paul says that what he knows of Jesus entirely comes from personal revelation (Gal.1:12) despite the fact that Paul claims to have stayed with Peter and James (the disciples who allegedly lived with Jesus day and night for three years) for 15 days (Gal.1:18,19).

Don't you think that Peter and James could have told Paul something about Jesus if Jesus had actually come to the earth? Apparently, Peter and James didn't know anything about Jesus' life on earth either.

According to Paul, how was Jesus made known? By scriptures and God's command (Rom. 16:25,26). What about his three year career on earth? Also, Paul says,"my gospel", not "the gospel" implying that it originated from him, not Jesus.

Yes, it seems as though Paul sees himself as the chief arbiter of Christians' relationship with Jesus: "I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Cor. 11:2)(NIV)

Also, "If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal.1:9)(NIV) Why did Paul think that he should have a monopoly on the gospel? Wouldn't the knowledge of Jesus' three year career attest to the true gospel?

Paul apparently puts himself on the same level as Peter. He claims to have seen Jesus personally (1 Cor. 9:1). Furthermore, Paul has the audacity to "oppose him to his face" (Gal.2:11) (It was a disagreement over circumcision.)

Evidently, Paul didn't know that Peter had lived with Jesus day and night for three years and that Jesus claimed that he was "the rock upon which I build my church." Paul didn't recognize Peter's authority because Paul didn't know that Jesus had come to earth. (And neither did Peter, evidently.)

The epistles do not mention Jesus return (with one exception, which I will discuss below). They mention the coming of Jesus. Look up these verses: 1 Cor.16:22, Phil 1:6, Phil 3:20, 2 Thess.1:7, 1 Peter 1:7
They are all anticipating the coming of the Lord. They do not say "come back," "come again," or "return." They say "come."

Hebrews 8 and 9 most clearly demonstrate that the first century Christians did not believe that Jesus ever set foot on earth.
"If he had been on earth, he would not even have been a priest ..." (Heb. 8:4)(NEB) or "If he were on earth, he would not be a priest ..." (NIV)

Furthermore, Jesus' sacrifice was in heaven, not on earth (Heb.9:11-14), (Heb.9:24,25). It says that Jesus will come again (Heb. 9:28). His first coming was in heaven, and his second coming will also be in heaven "... to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thess. 4:17). It appears that Jesus never intends to set foot on earth.

What about the last supper and the death and resurrection? According to first century Christian thinking, all of that happened in heaven, too. It was quite common for other gods that were popular in the Mediterranean at the time to undergo death and resurrection in heaven, for heavenly beings had physical bodies(1 Cor.15:35-49). For example, Dionysus was born of a virgin, had meals including raw meat and wine, was murdered, and resurrected, all in the mythical, heavenly realm. The god Attis was another one who died and was resurrected in the mythical, heavenly realm, and there were a host of others. (http://www.pantheon.org/)

How did Paul know about the last supper? "For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: ..." (1 Cor. 11:23). He received it directly from Jesus, by revelation, it was not an objective historical fact.

At the end of the first century, the writers of the gospels probably took information from Paul concerning the last supper, death, and resurrection, as well as the names of the apostles, and incorporated it into their gospel myths.

The first century Christians thought of Jesus as heavenly, mythical and never thought that Jesus set foot on earth. Why should you or I?
Anonymous said…
I was a Catholic, then a Baptist, now I do not study religion at all...For people that still believe in the bible, please watch http:// zeigeistmovie.com

You will see how many stories from the bible have been taken from previous religions...For example the story of Moses was lifted from the story of Sargon of Akka...
The similarities between the Egyptian religion and Christianity is staggering. The plagarism is hard to deny.
The story of Jesus' birth came from the Egyptian religion that
speaks of the birth of Horus born on Dec. 25 to a virgin mother Isis, adored by 3 kings, became a teacher at 12, and started a ministry at 30 (That was 3000 BC), traveled with 12 disciples....

This story also takes place with Attis from Greece 1200BC born of a virgin birth, on Dec. 25 as well.

Or Krishna (900BC) born of a virgin with the same star in the east, performed miracles with disciples, and was resurrected after 3 days,

Mithra born on the 25 referred to as "the truth, the light" etc.

The Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead which long predates Christianity......check it out...

The Story of Noahs ark came from the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Hindu Puranas or Deucalion in Greek Mythology...

What about the Dinosaurs? Where they asking which way to the ark???


Do some research, let the scales fall away from your eyes, and wake up...
I know it might be hard at first...it was very hard for me...I cried for a long time, did my research and am still flabbergasted that people would lie puropsely to control others...We need to live in a world of reality
Anonymous said…
Whispervanish,
Your comment was enlightening. Did you get this info from Acharya S.? I have a few of her books and have thumbed through them but haven't had a chance to read them yet.
Dave8 said…
Dave8: "'Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. The apostles "died" there Refractor, and "no new kingdom" came to be.'"

Refractor: "If you look at the very next chapter, you’ll see that Peter, James and John did see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. They witnessed Jesus' transfiguration."

Transfiguration; 1-Bible The sudden emanation of radiance from the person of Jesus that occurred on a mountain. 2-The Christian feast commemorating this event, observed on August 6 in the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches, on August 19 in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and on the Sunday before Lent in most Protestant churches.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transfiguration

Refractor, the transfiguration of the character Jesus of the bible, is about a metamorphosis and ascension (leaving Earth) into Heaven after Jesus’ literary "death".

According to The Book of Revelation, the character Jesus was to “Return” and “establish”, “His Kingdom”, on Earth, based on the rapture and apocalypse. The character Jesus was supposed to come and “save” the worthy from the four horsemen and Satan, and establish a New Kingdom – during the apostle’s lifetime.

Revelation 1:1 - "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.”

Revelation 1:3 – “The time is at hand."

Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:12 - "Behold, I come quickly."

Revelation 22:20 - "Surely I come quickly."

Refractor, if the Jesus character did “Return” as promised to his apostles as they lived, then according to Revelation, we are living in the Jesus character’s New Kingdom – right now. I guess we no longer need to worry about Christianity; it is no longer relevant in light of this news.

However, if you accept that Jesus, departed the Earth, by way of his literary transfiguration and ascension into heaven, and has “yet” to return – then, the good news is that the rapture hasn’t occurred… the bad news… is that the apostle’s were lied to by Jesus/God/some Divine Author of the Christian Bible.

What do you think Refractor?
Dave8 said…
Refractor, just so you aren't confused, just explain how a literary "transfiguration" of Jesus, is synonymous with the character Jesus' fulfillment of Revelation.

It's okay, to not answer - we all know the truth, many of us were once Christians, and actually read the bible - some of us, went on to Christian Universities and studied the Christian Bible in detail. Creating confused responses makes you appear ignorant or deceptive… so, do you normally promote ignorance, or do you lie to people to get them to accept your belief?
Astreja said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
Astreja said…
Refractor: "The reason for ALL suffering is sin, ie. Disobedience to God."

So if we disobey your god's will, that's "sin"?

So much for that "free will" shit.

And again, I would like to point out that the entity with the power is the one that bears the responsibility. Therefore, in all dealings with an omnipotent god that allegedly manipulates the behaviour and thoughts of its peons, the omnipotent god must eternally bear 100% responsibility for everything that occurs in its universe.

So, if your god exists (but I rather doubt it), it is the one responsible for all suffering, and "sin" is just weasel-words made up by the early church fathers.

"The bottom line is that we can never fully comprehend with our finite mind what God is doing, we must simply trust Him..."

How do you know that our unbelief isn't also "God's will"? Remember the story of Pharaoh.

"Do you even recognize that you are judging the creator of the Universe with such a statement?"

Hmm... I seem to remember a little Jewish fable about a garden with a magic tree and a talking snake. Supposedly Adam and Eve obtained knowledge of good and evil and became like unto gods. Then this knowledge somehow became a thought-crime, transmitted to future generations.

In other words... Judging the alleged "creator of the universe" is part of the human job description.

"...consider that if God is the source of all good (love, mercy, hope)..."

I don't think so. Remember "I create evil" from Isaiah 45:7?

"Have you not noticed that His rules are all founded on love..."

What, the Ten Commandments? Try again. There are hundreds of rules in the Bible.

Ordering people to be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath is not 'love'.

Sending an angel to tell Hagar to return to the abusive Sarai is not 'love'.

Allowing a rapist to "buy" his victim's hand in marriage for 50 shekels of silver is not 'love'.

Ordering the Israelites to massacre men, women, children and livestock is not 'love'.

"For me I can safely say that yes, I am scared shitless of hell AND that yes, I truly do love God."

I think we should rename Refractor 'Winston Smith', folks.

(And I really think you should give up those idiotic fairytales, Winnie, ol' boy, because your 'moral compass' is pointing straight to the looney bin.)
Anonymous said…
I was hurt slightly to hear that Refractor was Roman Catholic. Are Roman Catholics Christians? They are, if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that the are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ, which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a manmade ritual and certainly not the Catholic saints. Even though the Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.

The official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation is that the grace of God is infused into a baby at baptism -- making him/her justified before God. This justification can be lost through sin and must be regained by repeated participation in the many sacraments found in the Roman Catholic Church.

If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to Scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They need to hear the true Gospel. They need to hear that they are not made right before God by being in a church, or by being baptized, but by receiving Christ (John 1:12), believing that Jesus has risen from the dead (Rom. 10:9), and that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1) and not by our deeds (Rom. 4:5). It is only true faith that results in true works (James 2), not the other way around. Roman Catholics, like anyone else, need to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins and not the Catholic sacraments, not the words of the priest, not the Pope, not Mary, not the saints, not penance, not indulgences, not the rosary, etc. Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes, apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity.

Jesus alone saves. Jesus alone is Lord. Only Jesus' sacrifice can cleanse us. Only by faith are we made right before God. Justification is by faith, not by anything we do.
Anonymous said…
oops that was quoted from Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry and that was mainly for Refractor
Anonymous said…
You need to understand, Refractor, that we are not attacking your Bible-God, the alleged ruler of the universe. Nor are we questioning him.

We don't believe in him. He does not exist, we cannot question him. The person who we are questioning are you.
It isn't God whose insane moral code says that everyone who exists is somehow tainted with an evil that took place thousands upon thousands of years ago. Not once have I heard any "God" proclaim this judgement. No God has sentenced me to hell, only you people. And unlike "God" who created everything, your minds are mortal and finite. We have the audacity to question God? You have the audacity to assume you have the answer.

It is your beliefs we are attacking, not your God.

We don't attack the non-existant.
Dave8 said…
DEDB suggests that RCC members need to be evangelized :-) by True Christians - of course.
Anonymous said…
I'm sure glad we have dogeatdog here to set us straight on the correct theology.
sconnor said…
Awwwwww the gloves are off. Next on ultimate christian fighting -- Refractor in the -- say ten hail mary's -- RC corner; Dog in the whacked-out -- fire and brimstone -- fundie corner.
What a bitch-slap contest this will be, folks! Leeeeettt's Geeeet Reeeeady Tooo RAMBLE!!!!!
Jackie said…
hey refractor and dogeat,
What you are forgetting is that we are ex-christians. We already know all the bible answers. We already know that only through jesus we can be "saved" and go to heaven instead of hell. We just don't believe it anymore. It doesn't make any sense. We dont believe in the bible god just the same way that you don't believe in Allah or Budah etc....
How do you know which one is true? Allah? bible god? Budah? You know that if Allah is true, you will be in hell with us!
Sux hey!
When I was a christian (and probably all the others on this site too), we would have responded with all the same answers that you have responded with. We've been there, so we understand where you are coming from...
Come on!! Free your mind and come join us in the land of reason and logic!
Hells Bells said…
It's pointless arguing with these guys (and I assume they're male). They have railroaded their thoughts into a circular logic where each step seems to logically follow the last. The "answers" they spout out only make sense within their own framework. Should they ever "hit life" and start to question - "who assembled the bible?", "how do I really reconcile the contradictions in the bible?", "who do I trust and why?", "why does god appear to have both love and hate?" - that's the point when they're ready to take on board what's been thrown at them here.

Similarly, they can't accept that we do "know" the answers that they throw at us - most of us (myself included) used them ourselves for years. They want to win us back "for the kingdom" in the same way as lots of us appear to want to "win them" to rationality. It ain't ever going to work without that internal impetus.
Anonymous said…
Dear DogEatDogBlack,
Your explanations are lucid and well thought out. Out of curiosity, could you tell us your feelings about these forms of Christianity?

-Eastern Orthodox
-Mormonism
-The Jehovah's Witnesses
-Full Gospel (Speaking in tongues,faith healing, snake handling,etc ...)
.:webmaster:. said…
Now if we could only get David, the SDA, to chime in. That might prove interesting.
Refractor said…
DeDB said: {it (the Catholic Church) greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation}

This is incorrect DeDB, Catholics do not believe that we are saved by any works. We believe that a faith without works is a dead faith. If your faith is real and you are in a healthy communion with God’s spirit, you will be compeled to works. But your works have nothing to do with your salvation. My salvation is solely and completely due to my faith in Jesus Christ for having redeemed me. Nothing else.

DeDB said: { Roman Catholics, like anyone else, need to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins and not the Catholic sacraments, not the words of the priest, not the Pope, not Mary, not the saints, not penance, not indulgences, not the rosary, etc. Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life}

By being a member of the Catholic church simply means that we are blessed to have access to the fullness of truth. The graces given to us through the sacraments, with faith, help to sustain us as we journey through this life. We do not worship Mary nor the saints and penance is done as a gift to God because we love Him so much. The rosary is actually praying the Gospels, we meditate on 20 mysteries from the bible itself. God already knows what we need before we ask Him. Meditating on Him, Jesus, is certainly acceptable worship of our Lord.

DeDB said: { Yes, apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity.}

The Roman Catholic Church and its belief is not in a state of apostasy. The doctrine of the Catholic faith is completely founded on scripture. This is a long topic to discuss and I’m late for work so I’ll have to keep it short. The one thing you are correct with is that there is a general apostasy that is happening to “members” of the Catholic Church.

By the way, Dave8. The rapture is happening right now. See how God’s spirit has stolen my heart, yet left many around me in the dust.

God bless.
jimearl said…
Isn't it interesting that giving up your mind is now called "God stealing my heart" according to Refractor. Give us all a break and move on with your gobblely gook, pretty please.
Anonymous said…
"The rapture is happening right now. See how God’s spirit has stolen my heart, yet left many around me in the dust."

Wow! Cool!
Anonymous said…
Hey guys, quiet.

I'm trying to watch the show. We should take bets or something. Like the winner of this inter-christian argument gets to continue to try to convert us, and the loser has to go home.

Five bucks on Refractor. He has prettier words.
Dave8 said…
Refractor... let’s discuss.

The Tribulation Period began in the literary era, following the character Jesus' death. The rapture marks the last seven years of the Tribulation Period. At the conclusion of the Tribulation Period is Armageddon.

Armageddon is supposed to be filled with complete suffering; the four horsemen, and Satan leading the charge on a white horse, per most traditions.

Armageddon comes to an end, when the character Jesus re-appears on earth, e.g., The Second Coming of Christ, and he vanquishes darkness/Satan, allowing him to establish his New Kingdom in Jerusalem for 1K years.

Refractor, you propose that you are living in the “rapture”, which means Armageddon can be no further away than seven years from now. Shall we call you a prophet?

The apostles believed they would live through the Tribulation Period, the Rapture portion of the Tribulation Period, Armageddon, and come to reside in the presence of the character Jesus, in the New Kingdom of Jerusalem. When the character Jesus, stated that he would return after his death, to meet the apostles; that signified Jesus’ Second Coming, and that the apostles were to inhabit the New Kingdom of Christ – before they tasted death.

If the apostles were visited by the character Jesus as biblically promised, then Armageddon happened in their day, and the 1K years of the character Jesus' reign has already passed.

Refractor, if the apostles were visited, then... we need a "Newer Testament", perhaps a "Third" covenant, because Revelation has concluded, and we somehow missed the 1K years of the character Jesus' reign in Jerusalem - and therefore, you are not living in a time of tribulation.

Since, you have attempted to avoid stating the errancy within the bible; I'll just go ahead and state the obvious for you.

Either you are in tribulation, and the bible is erroneous and “not” evidence for a perfect and omniscient God, or... the bible is correct, Revelation has concluded, we missed out - and you are deluded.

Again, the doomsdays prophesy, gnashing of teeth, brimstone, and Hell, has been the mainstay of Orthodox & Evangelical Christianity. The Book of Revelation, etc., are used as coercive "tools" to compel and instill fear in innocent people, such that they seek the need for salvation, grace, a savior, and ultimately a “religion”.

However, if anyone truly reads the bible, especially the New Testament, they will realize that the prophesies within the Book of Revelation were supposed to happen during the early Christian era; during the time of the apostles.

Luke 21:32 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled”

1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

1 Peter 4:7 - "But the end of all things is at hand."

Refractor, I am still hedging that you are being deceptive in your comments; you can’t possibly be as devout a RC as you propose to be, and be as ignorant as your statements give you credit for.
boomSLANG said…
Classic! Who could ask for better entertainment?...i.e..two different Christians, with two different "True Interpretations™" of the "One Universal Truth ™". Hallelujah!... sweet irony!
Anonymous said…
Refractor,

To tread softly let me say first that I believe, hope, and celebrate that you are a Christian. I don't want to place a stumbling block in your path. I just wanted you to understand that false religions are out there and would hate anyone to get caught up in them and be deceived.

Everyone has heard of the fruit and if it is a good tree it will bear good fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit as stated in the Bible (Luke 6:43)

Just do a quick poll here to see how many of these anti-Christians started as RC's. Just look at the crusades or the pedophilia that is prevalent throughout the RC church. These things are not "good" fruit. Agree?

All I am asking is to consider that the church you go to has a false doctrine such as worshiping or saying hail to Mary, or to call priests father when either example are contrary to scripture. (Matthew 23:9)

I also have things to accomplish today so I have to keep things short, just think about what I said

With love,
Dog
.:webmaster:. said…
Dog,

Ask Refractor if he believes Mary is appearing to people, warning them of the need to repent, etc.

The answer, if he decides to answer, is yes. He's been around here for months promoting his RC agenda.
Jim Arvo said…
Doug said to Refractor "...false religions are out there and [I] would hate anyone to get caught up in them and be deceived."

Absolutely! Do you understand, Doug, that everyone here could echo that very same sentiment? Where we disagree is on which religions are false.

Doug said "Just do a quick poll here to see how many of these anti-Christians started as RC's."

First, the more proper term would be ex-Christian, not anti-Christian (I consider myself the former, but not necessarily the latter). As for which of us started out as Catholics, I'd guess not very many. I was raised a Lutheran.

Doug said "All I am asking is to consider that the church you go to has a false doctrine..."

Are you willing to do that as well, Doug? Can you seriously contemplate whether the doctrine of your church is correct, and how you know it to be so? I hope you can (and do), but if not, please ask yourself why Refractor should follow your advice if you do not also.
jimearl said…
Jim Arvo asks:

Absolutely! Do you understand, Doug, that everyone here could echo that very same sentiment? Where we disagree is on which religions are false.

Let me see if I know the answer to that one.....Hmmm, ALL of them?
boomSLANG said…
Any Christian:

If one cannot admit the possiblity that they may wrong about their interpetation of their respective religious doctrine, then why the need for "faith" in the first place?

(answers that are consistant with logic would be preferable)
Dog turd,
I'm an Ex-Christian who was a Southern Baptist; and I bet you are Southern Baptist as well.
Anonymous said…
DogEatDog,
From age 0-16, Southern Baptist.

16-19, Assembly of God

Atheist from 19-47 (present)

This inter-religion competition is really entertaining. I remember our church (SB) was on a corner diagonally across from a Presbyterian church, and we were always talking about how they were going to hell.

Yeah, only Southern Baptists are making it to heaven. LOL!
Refractor said…
DeDB,

I’m probably too tired to answer this right now (late sport night) but I’d just like to make very clear that I consider those that love Jesus in their hearts as Christians just like myself, regardless of their Christian doctrine. Our faith in Jesus is what binds us as brothers in Christ. There are some sects with doctrinal errors that I consider very serious and for these sects I worry for their salvation (I’m referring to those that don’t believe that Jesus was divine and their redeemer).

I will clarify for everyone that absolutely no Catholics worship Mary, the mother of Jesus. If you look up the definition of “hail”, you'll see that it’s simply a salutation. Salvation is through Jesus, who was true man and true God. Mary is a created being, like all of us and it is simply silly to think that Catholics worship her or any other created being that we call Saints. This is the most common error that non-Catholics have with their perception of Catholic doctrine. If you still don’t believe me, please spend your time at www.vatican.va and let me know when you find a statement that indicates the opposite. Jesus honors His mother and has blessed her in a special way. There is nothing wrong with pleading with His mother for intercession, which Good Son can resist His mother? Even the very first miracle of scripture attests to Jesus’ “weakness” to supplications that come from His mother. He said very clearly that His time had not yet come at the marriage in Cana, but Mary told the men to simply do everything He says. Mary is the spiritual mother of mankind and she is full of grace. As said in Luke1:42 “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb”. There is none more blessed than Mary among women and as the mother of God, she should be honored and loved for having accepted God’s plan for salvation.

Please try to recognize that I did not post here to discuss doctrine but if you’re going to make sweeping statements about Roman Catholics having false doctrine, I suggest you please find the doctrinal error straight from the source. Please don’t let others mislead you, find out for yourself. This is what I’ve done and have yet to find anything wrong.

Another point that should be noted is the way in which Jesus testifies to His authenticity. He clearly states that they should not believe Him because of His words but because of what He does. Jesus, God, always uses the supernatural to put His stamp of authenticity. We must be careful here because there may be supernatural manifestations that are not from God and this is where we can apply our measuring stick of a person that bears good fruit or not. What bears good fruit or not should not be applied to an entire Christian denomination. Indeed the Catholic church and its priest are under grave attacks. Do you wonder why satan would want to attack and smear Catholic priests with such grave sins? In my opinion, this is simple warfare.

I believe that God has entered time and space this past century because, as a good Father, He wants us all to be heedful of His justice. The 70000 witnesses to a 10 minute miracle of the sun in Fatima cannot be denied and yet so few people today pay attention to God’s message. 70000 people were forewarned of a coming miracle and they all converged to a small town and many believers and non-believers witnessed the miracle. This is all documented in newspapers before and after the date of Oct. 29, 1917. Do you know the Christian faith of the 3 children that witnessed the miracles, Roman Catholics. As predicted in the messages, two died young and the third dedicated her life to God. No one that lies about anything so sensational would dedicate their life to a convent in prayerful worship of God. Friend, this is good fruit.

Matthew 16:18
"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

The church of Christ on earth has a visible head that represents Jesus and this is the pope, just like Jesus said in Matthew16:18.

With regards to the issue of priests being called Father, the context of scripture must be properly examined. Jesus is simply saying that we should never think of priests as God the Father and when we use the term Father it is never meant to be used in that way. Jesus is actually condemning the Pharisees' exaltation of themselves in the context of Matther23:9.

Dave8, I’d love to comment on your post as well but have no time right now.

God bless.
Dave8 said…
Wasn't there some comment on how a True Christian is saved? What about these possibilities in the bible?

Eat Jesus' body and blood (Cannibalism)

John 6:53-54 - "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Pre-Destination (No Human Free-Will/Sin)
Ephesians 1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us ... according to the good pleasure of his will."

How would a True Christian respond to such biblical passages? Are only pre-destined cannibals saved?
Dave8 said…
Refractor: "I will clarify for everyone that absolutely no Catholics worship Mary, the mother of Jesus. If you look up the definition of “hail”, you'll see that it’s simply a salutation."

When I addressed the literary work of Holy fiction known as the bible, and the literary character Jesus' failure to honor his promises, to his apostles (per the Gospels) in order to fulfill The Book of Revelation... you deflected/refracted, the conversation to "you" and how "you" believe you are living in the "rapture".

Hate to break this one to you... but, the Holy Fiction trumps "your opinion", in terms of discussing the RCC and Christianity in general.

Sure, you have a right to your opinion, but "your opinion", does not remove the inconsistencies of the bible; and "your opinion" does not reflect the Orthodoxy of the RCC.

Now, instead of honestly discussing the topic directly on Mary, you dodge around on that one, using the word "Hail" - a word you proffer, because its benign.

However, if you are a devout RC, you know better... Mary is worshipped. You continue to use the techniques of verbal dissimulation and redirection.

At least most fundamentalist Christians, are just plain ignorant of their bible; not understanding the broken prophesies of the Old Testament, which never came to pass, or the broken prophesies of the New Testament, which never came to pass.

Refractor, you are different. You know the truth, but continue to take pleasure in perpetuating deception. Most people, when they find out how to actually read the bible, and know what the words really mean, go... gee, I wasn't aware that the OT & NT prophesies failed, I suppose I will have to be honest with people on this topic.

You on the other hand, take pleasure in continuing to propagate confusion, redirecting topics and words, in order to keep up the pretense of your religion.

I'll say this though, the RCC has long recognized the failed prophesies of the OT and NT, and is why the RCC has its own separate doctrine and living authority on earth.

Want to see who knows more about the RCC per doctrine and facts Refractor?

I'll start, you can choose "not" to follow up, "and" wait for further posts (NAND), or, just opine when you feel ready.

Feasts That Honor Mary
-Solemnity of Mary (Jan 1)
-Purification of Mary (Feb 2)
-Our Lady of Lourdes (Feb 11)
-Annunciation (Mar 25)
-Visitation of Mary (Mar 31)
-Visitation (May 31)
-Immaculate Heart of Mary (Sat. After 2nd Sunday after Pentecost)
-Our Lady of Mount Carmel (Jul 16)
-Parents of Mary (July 26)
-Assumption (Aug 15)
-Queenship of Mary (Aug 22)
-Birth of Mary (Sep 8)
-Our Lady of Sorrows (Sep 15)
-Our Lady of the Rosary (Oct 7)
-Presentation of Mary (Nov 21)
-Immaculate Conception (Dec 8)
-Our Lady of Guadalupe (Dec 12)

Feasts That Honor Jesus
-Christmas (12/25) Birth of Jesus
-Epiphany (Jan 6)
-Easter (Spring) Resurrection
-Good Friday (Spring) Crucifixion

If we polled a group of children, using this list of feasts, asking them who is the more important figure... who do you actually believe they would pick?

The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism 573
"How does the worship of God differ from the worship of angels and saints? The worship of God is adoration, that of the angels and saints is veneration. Only God is to be adored; all others are to be honored as creatures whose dignity depends entirely on God." (The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism, John A. Hardon, S.J., Page 128-129: Copyright 1981 and bearing Imprimatur, Imrpimi Potest, and Nihil Obstat)

The Catholic Encyclopedia

-Adoration: Adoration refers to the external act of worship or honor given to a thing or person of excellence. (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Revised and Updated, 1986; Thomas Nelson Publishers)

-Veneration of the Saints Special worship, called dulia, is due to the saints and angels...." (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Revised and Updated, 1986; Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Refractor, "Hail"? Good try... If you want to actually engage in honest discourse, talk about the words worship and venerate, throw in idolatry if you desire.

Do you consider Pope Paul VI, to be Catholic - Refractor?

Pope Paul VI
"From the time that we were called to the Chair of St. Peter, we have constantly worked to increase the worship of Mary (culto mariano)"
Ref: per il retto ordinamento e sviluppo del culto della beata Vergine Maria - esortazione apostolica di Sua Santita Paolo VII, Page 2

Mary as Mediatrix
"Mary is the mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What that means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession. Through God's will, grace is not conferred on anyone without Mary's intercession."
Ref: Catholicism and Fundamentalism, by Karl Keating, Copyright 1988; with Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur: Page 279

I'd suspect DeDB (yes, I'll lower case the verb :) has some issues about seeking Divine Authority, outside of the bible.

Its okay, the Mormons have their own Modern Day Prophet and additional doctrine as well.

It's interesting, some religions "evolved", having read the literary bible, and knowing the failed OT & NT prophesies; they created their own doctrine to fill gaps and bring in a "Newer" Testament, authorized by Modern Day Prophets, Mormon-Bishops, Catholic-Popes, etc.

However, there are still plenty of religions using the literary bible, only... with huge followings; I suspect literacy has a lot to do with it.
cipher said…
Refractor,

Regarding Fatima - you may want to read up on the psychology of mass delusion. It's a fairly common phenomenon.

This is an old argument. Orthodox Jews use it to rationalize the "revelation" at Sinai. Supposedly, there were three million people there, all of whom experienced the same thing.

It's also closely related to the argument used to attest to the validity of the gospels - "They were so profoundly transformed, that it must be true. They couldn't have been just making it up!"

People can and do - all the time.
Anonymous said…
Wow!!! Did I learn alot today about the Catholic crap I used to belong to...I didn't even know about half of the stuff that I just read...see how much is hidden?? Or maybe I was too busy picking my nose in Sunday school...
Thanks Dave8!!

Just to chime in on the "Mary is not worshipped" idea...absolutely FALSE!!! We were totally taught to worship her!! If not, then why all the damn statues? Why give her a special prayer? Why all these damn holidays (that I didn't even know about)? My grandmother is nun (how you figure the Roman Catholic Church did that? I don't know.) - in any case SHE knows about all of these insane holidays...

I left the Catholic church after actually reading the entire bible one day...For myself I read it, and as a teenager saw so many inconsistencies, it wasn't even funny...
My favorite was the one where priests are not allowed to marry, but in the bible it clearly gives the priest that choice...No wonder so many turn to molesting little children (boys or alter servers especially) they feel bound by some man made up rule!!

The other one was the prayer for Mary- the "mother of god" it clearly says in the bible that you should not pray to anybody else!!!JUST ME(god)!! But there I was praying to Mary, praying to Saint Anthony if I lost something!!!What the hell?? How can dead people intercede on my behalf?? I thought I was just supposed to pray to god!

Also the Hail Mary prayer is NOT in the bible....When the disciple said the original "Our Father Prayer", that Hail Mary ending was not part of it...

I started going to mass and really listening to what the priest was saying...It never made any sense! yet the people just stared , and did the "get up, sit down, and kneel" ritual for a whole hour...

I didn't see any spirituality in those long and stretched out amens...

(WHICH came from the name of the Egyptian God Amen-Ra)
Refractor said…
Dave8 said:
{Pre-Destination (No Human Free-Will/Sin)
Ephesians 1:4-5 - "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us ... according to the good pleasure of his will."

How would a True Christian respond to such biblical passages? Are only pre-destined cannibals saved?}

Questions, why did you remove the text "to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ" from your quote of Ephesians 1:4-5 ?

You know very well that the verse says nothing about our lives and choices being predestined. What Ephesians 1:5 says is that God "destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will".

We were all created to be adopted by Jesus but you certainly have your own free-will to reject Jesus, as you apparently do.

Isn't it sad how we humans can lie to ourselves? Just look at Dave8's attempt to manipulate verses to meet his agenda. I see this time and time again either through omissions as Dave8's done or by pulling text out of its context. What a sad and pathetic lot we all are.

I for one grew tired of lying to myself and others several years ago. Guess when I fell in love with Jesus...the day I admitted that I was nothing but a liar.

He took pity on me and through His spirit He continues to nurse me back to health...spiritual health. You are all pre-destined to return home to God, through faith in His son.

Please find it in your heart to return home, we all want you back home. Fall in love with righteousness and watch how God’s light will show you the way.

God bless.
.:webmaster:. said…
To the RCC troll: I guess St. Augustine was a heretic, then. He preached predestination.

Scroll down to Chapter 19
Astreja said…
Refractor: "Isn't it sad how we humans can lie to ourselves?"

Like this:

"I admitted that I was nothing but a liar."

Well, that's one lie, right there. If you had previously said even one truth, you could not have been 'nothing but a liar'.

"You are all pre-destined to return home to God... Please find it in your heart to return home...."

Is it just Me, or is this not a blatant contradiction? 'Pre-destined' to return, yet we have to choose to go there? WTF???

Refractor, get yourself a good secular psychiatrist, STAT. You've convinced yourself that black is white, and I think you should stay well away from zebra crossings till you get that problem sorted out.

(And, once again... The above self-contradictory nonsense is something that he thinks we should want to emulate. Why, oh, why can't they see how friggin' *stoopid* they look to us?)
Astreja wrote:
Refractor, get yourself a good secular psychiatrist, STAT. You've convinced yourself that black is white, and I think you should stay well away from zebra crossings till you get that problem sorted out
---
Astreja,

If I make any typing mistakes, it's because I'm still laughing hard here about the zebra crossing problem Refactor would have.
That was GOOD!!!
I'm sure though, that heaven will be painted in colors like GOLD, so he won't have any problems telling black from white anymore.


ATF (who wonders how Refactor can tell the good guy's from the bad guy's in those old time western movies to)
Anonymous said…
Don't you people have anything else to do?
Two questions:
1) to the christians (reformer and dogeatdog) --- why are you wasting your time? This is a site for ex-christians; folks who've clearly spent considerable time reaching their decision and will live with the consequences - or not
2) to the ex-christians --- if you're so convinced of your choice, why spend so much energy defending it? Aren't you guilty of a form of evangelism that you are allegedly so oppossed to?
.:webmaster:. said…
To whatever: Read the site disclaimer. If Christians come here to argue, they get argued with. However, there is no evangelism going on here. The Christians are coming to our place. I could care less what Christians believe. This site is for those who are questioning the veracity of Christianity. Evangelism is going TO someone and preaching TO them. We are not going TO Christians, they are coming TO us.

Hopefully you understand the difference.
Dave8 said…
Refractor: "Questions, why did you remove the text "to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ" from your quote of Ephesians 1:4-5 ?"

Refractor; the importance of the passage deals with "pre-destination", period.

"Pre-destination", strips humanity from being able to change their own destiny.

If a person can not make decisions, do good works, have faith in the literary character Jesus Christ, etc., etc., and open the opportunity to "change" their destiny towards salvation, etc., then what is the purpose of "religion" and biblical "doctrine"? None, if the bible is the "only" authoritative source used to establish one's religious belief.

The closure of the OT, can be read in the pages of the bible, and was ratified as "closed" by the Roman Emperor Constantine I. The Jewish Messiah never arrived, and the Jews didn't inhabit their New Kingdom as promised by their God.

The closure of the NT can be read in the pages of the bible (Gospels and Revelation), and was closed by the death of the apostles...

As a RC, you really aren't affected; you have a modern day "messiah", to pick up where the bible closed out.

Messiah: "3. (usually lowercase) any expected deliverer.
4. (usually lowercase) a zealous leader of some cause or project." also, "One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/messiah

So, really... talking about "pre-destination", or anything else in the bible for that matter, is really ironic with a RC.

DeDB, on the other hand probably, has no idea the bible closed out, is caput, finished, done, audios, the end - screen closes when apostles die on stage, and no Armageddon.

The relevance of even discussing passages in the bible; like pre-destination, is to challenge the believer to "read" the "whole" bible, from beginning to end - so they, come the educated understanding of its "conclusion".

The bible read backwards, starting with Revelation, and then the Gospels would be sufficient for this purpose.

You see, Refractor, while you have an elected messiah, to "fix" the theological problems, with a Pope and additional doctrine - like Original Sin, which isn't in the bible, DeDB is only able to source the bible, and has no where else to turn, except back to the bible for answers.

It's amusing, the same book some religions use to validate their belief of Jesus, God, etc., is the "same exact authority” that closes itself out. It's circularly complete, in many dimensions.

Now, Refractor... would you be so kind, as to "explain" to DeDB, or me for that matter... which country and elected official(s) established the NT as divine, and canonized the OT and NT into a bible.

I mean, the bragging rights of the Roman Catholic Church, is that they can trace their authority, back to Peter - right.

In short, the authority responsible for the germination of the Christian religion - is the RCC. Care to explain to DeDB, which religion still holds the True Authority, and why those religions that don't have a "messiah"/Pope, are defunct?

My question for you Refractor... is why does the RCC, choose to deceptively cite the bible, when convenient, as historical fact; like Mary being the Jesus character's mother, knowing the bible is defunct... and then, using the RCC's "messiah" to "expand" and make divine "pronouncements" beyond the bible's scope? For example; giving people the status of Saint, claiming Original Sin... neither, are supported by the bible alone.
Refractor said…
Today is Divine Mercy Sunday everyone, a special day of Mercy. Make your pleas to God and invoke Saint Fautina or Saint Mary. Speak to them as you would speak to anyone and ask them to pray to God for you!

As Jesus told Saint Faustina (1931):
Secretary of My mercy, write, tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of my justice, is near.

As scripture says:
"Today is the day of salvation,"

By the way Dave8, predestination is always from God's perspective. He already knows your destination but that does not mean that you never had the freedom to choose to be with Him. If you reject Him until the end, on that awful day, you would know every grace that He gave you yet rejected.

Please everyone, don't your choices haunt you for eternity, choose Love above all things. This life can be taken from you any moment and at this time, you'll find yourself in absolute reality.

God Bless!
Refractor wrote:
"Today is Divine Mercy Sunday everyone, a special day of Mercy"
-----
Okay, just for today, I will have 'mercy' on the followers of the Divine God Jupiter.

Sorry, but I can't extend that 'mercy' to the xtian god followers.
They can obtain their needed mercy from their ministers.

Hey Refractor, did you know everyone can see the Divine God Jupiter with their 'refractor' based telescopes, and right from their own backyards....no church is necessary.
Go ahead, give it a try yourself.

Now while you're at it, scan the stars and planets and see if you can locate your xtian god for us, in the 'heavens' above.


ATF (Who wonders if a Reflector based telescope would be more suited to finding the xtian god?)
freethinker05 said…
Thats right WM, So whatever, go bite a monkey or "whatever in the hind-end. peace, Roger
Dave8 said…
Refractor: "Today is Divine Mercy Sunday everyone, a special day of Mercy. Make your pleas to God and invoke Saint Fautina or Saint Mary. Speak to them as you would speak to anyone and ask them to pray to God for you!"

Once again, Refractor, you have proven yourself a True RC, by firing the character Jesus Christ of the bible, from his job as mediatrix for all humanity - you know, no one comes to the father except through the character Jesus Christ.

:-) Instead, of just letting your modern day "messiah"/Pope, elect to prop up the character Mary over the character Jesus Christ... you have lowered the status of the Character Jesus Christ to that of the average mortal - we can now "all" just go to "anyone" and get them to "mediate" on our behalf to the Christian God concept.

Refractor: "By the way Dave8, predestination is always from God's perspective."

Yet, you have no way to confirm this, unless you are omniscient, right.

Refractor: "He already knows your destination but that does not mean that you never had the freedom to choose to be with Him."

A few points of order here Refractor... If a God pre-destines humanity, it's because of such a God's free-will to bring anything into being...

If you propose, that humanity actually has the ability to change their destiny, then you suggest humanity's "will" is stronger than your "God's".

While you may sit around, enjoying your thoughts and believe you actually have a choice in life - it's only an illusion, no matter what you do, it's already known by your RC God concept.

Thanks for the invite to compartmentalize my understanding of reality; by severing the connection between the belief of predestination and my ability to actually have free-will in life, but... I don't deliberately expend "mental energy" to keep up the pretense of the obvious "conflict" between pre-destination and free-will - in order to protect my fragile belief.

Do you intend, on explaining to DeDB how only the RCs are True Christians?
Anonymous said…
whatever,
Atheists need to stand up to religious tyranny, religious Naziism.

Religion is the blight of mankind.
Alpreacher said…
All I can say that you are not Jesus' sheep. Your end is predicted and doom is very certain. What else? Yes, the torments are going to be everlasting. But He still pleads with you to come to Him.
Astreja said…
Got any proof for your alleged god, Alpreacher? Not from the Bible, either. Around here, we consider the Bible to be a work of mythology, completely unreliable as evidence of anything.

Until you can deliver the goods that no other human has ever managed to deliver -- Actual scientific proof of the existence of a genuine god -- Your "certainty" is equally mythical.

Oh, and your threats of doom and torment are abusive and pretty fucking rude, too. Go away.
boomSLANG said…
preacher...All I can say that you are not Jesus' sheep. Your end is predicted and doom is very certain. What else? Yes, the torments are going to be everlasting. But He still pleads with you to come to Him.[bold added, to draw attention to blatant contradiction]

This is remarkable---if "He" has "predicted" our "end", I wonder why "He" would be so stupid as to "plead" that we "come to Him"??? That's not too smart....you know, for being "God", and all. Lol.
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said…
alpreacher,

I am definitely not Jesus' sheep. I used to be, and it only brought me misery and suffering.

There is no pleasure on earth greater than the pleasure that is derived from clear thinking.

I admonish you to leave your silly, delusional faith and walk into the world of reason.

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