A discussion of why I no longer want to be identified with Christianity
By James M. Wilhelm
When I was a fundamentalist Christian it was the devil I couldn’t get out of my mind. Over thirty years later, as I finally give up Christianity, it’s that Jesus character I can’t get out of my mind. Jesus was supposed to save me from evil. Now, who will save me from Jesus? If you want to believe in evil then evil will be real to you. If you want to believe in a savior then Jesus will be real to you. Therefore, I have concluded it’s all in your mind. There is no eternal struggle except that which you chose to believe or allow in your thoughts. Christians will go through all kinds of mental gymnastics setting up the forces of good against evil, self-righteously using the Bible as their guide but in the end the Bible has no supernatural power to do anything except maybe take your money and make you feel guilty. I’ve decided to no longer let that happen. It took many long hard years to get to this point.
In the end, when all the books are closed and you shut your mouth and sit quietly in a chair and quit defending what you believe or don’t believe, you find reality. Generally, Christians can’t do that. They’re too intent on defending their position, quoting the bible, praying for your lost soul, casting out the devil and other mental gyrations to let reality be a part of their Christian experience. Praying, by the way, now seems more like whining and usually accomplishes nothing except maybe to make you look pious in front of your Christian friends. I no longer pray and feel pretty good about it.
After years of studying, searching, pondering and believing I’ve concluded that Christianity is nothing more than an acceptable form of superstition. Not unlike the belief that if you walk under a ladder or break a mirror you will be subject to bad luck. In the Christian form of superstition the mirror is replaced with the need to be saved from evil and the antidote or remedy is to accept the savior otherwise, risk an eternity in hell or, in the case of breaking a mirror, seven years of bad luck. They’re both the same and both ridiculous and I don’t want to be identified with either. Like the Roseanne Cash song says – “ I don’t want your tired religion, I’m not someone you need to save.” That about sums it up for me now.
I have a problem standing up for myself and when I do there is usually this underlying feeling that maybe I’m wrong or maybe I’ll offend this person. This has never really stopped me but it always seems to undermine my convictions especially in front of people who I intellectually know are not at the same level. It causes a certain insecurity and I’ve dealt with it all my life. In my quieter moments daily conversations and confrontations replay in my head causing endless unseen torment. The realization that Christianity is essentially invalid has, in an unexpected way, helped me cope with this better. This reinforces my understanding that religion is essentially cultural and has deep roots inside all of our motivations. I don’t want to get into a semantic argument about religion vs. a belief in God, as I’m really tired of all those discussions. They go nowhere.
I know more about the Bible than most people and for personal reasons I found myself studying it and researching it far more than I should have. This has caused much pain. Christianity works best when it is applied superficially and that the “peace beyond all understanding” is only attainable that way. To go deeper makes one miserable and judgmental or causes you to intellectualize the whole thing to the point where it becomes useless. The Catholics have turned this into an art form. The typical Christian timeline starts with an energetic, although superficial understanding of Christianity, and along the path you realize it’s not working well so you turn it into an intellectual pursuit and stay in that safe zone until you die or get honest. Most purveyors of the faith unconsciously know this but can’t acknowledge it because it’s painful on many fronts. It’s easier to stay in the intellectual zone rather than be honest. Besides, there’s a lifetime of Bible verses to support your position so why let honesty get in your way? The world is full of theologians, scholars and ministers stuck in the intellectual zone who would rather not jeopardize their status with a little honesty. Using the Bible to prove the Bible seems ridiculous to me now so I’ve decided to give the whole thing up and I feel better for it - really. Having no absolutes is absolutely OK with me.
An interesting footnote in history concerns Mother Theresa. A Catholic nun, recently deceased, she attempted to save the lost and dying in the streets of Calcutta, India with much fanfare. Turns out, she died with virtually no personal belief in Christianity. In very private letters, which she did not want made public, disclosed this to the church’s hierarchy. She had big-time reservations concerning God/Jesus for most of her adult life. But, went on to save the lost anyway because she didn’t have the guts to move on with her life. Besides, people put her saintliness so high on a pedestal she would rather live a lie than admit she might have been wrong about her faith. Don’t get me wrong. Helping people is OK and commendable and a human thing to do. Doing it under the pretense of saving lost souls doesn’t work and must have been pretty depressing. But, as expected, the Catholic Church quickly put their spin on it calling her spiritually void period something “all great saintly people go through”. Then started proceedings to move her into the saintly realm. Her “spiritually void” period lasted for 50 odd years. So much for honesty.
The arguments Christians make to those of us who have moved on usually start by questioning your previous commitment. How do you respond to that? I guess they should know since God is no longer on your side. I lost that one. Another ploy is to start quoting the Bible as if you haven’t heard every verse concerning the lost - over and over. I loose that one too. The final and most insulting stage is the “I’m going to pray for you” stage. Realizing some do have a sincere but misguided interest in your soul but knowing most wish you a lifetime in hell since you are no longer in the club. I usually tell them I appreciate the thought. To them this is final confirmation of my eternally lost soul.
There is no way of knowing but I would venture to say that I’ve heard or read every major Christian sermon know to man on every possible subject from the most simple to the most intellectual. I have pondered, thought and agonized over many of them. I really don’t need another. I’ve had a lifetime of them, in fact, several lifetimes. At this point I start to imagine what a world without religion would be like. Think about it. The implications are staggering since every major conflict has religion at its root. It took years just to get to the point where I would even entertain such a thought. What is striking to me now is the arrogance some people with religion have. Usually proportional to how deep you chose to go or how many people follow your every word. I now view the more prominent Christian personalities completely different than before. The confidence and surety the have is amazing and very compelling. No wonder people will drop their common sense at the door and drink the Kool-Aid.
To me one of the most damaging things about Christianity and probably all other religions is the worldview you develop. Even now, as I no longer want to be identified with Christianity, certain aspects of it still haunt me. It colors every area of your life depending on how serious you are or were about your beliefs. As a practicing believer it gives you a smugness that only you and your group have the truth. All others are suspect. Usually there’s an interrogation period when a newcomer happens to cross your path and you blow it as you set up the you against me defense system. A great way to meet new people. The worldview that is equally bad is the thought that there’s a battle going on all around and your mind happens to be the battlefield. The war of good against evil is going on – right in your head! This delusion makes for some real distortion and most never return. One part that doesn’t seem to get answered adequately is that if Jesus finished the work on the cross then why is it still going on in my head? You can spend a lot of time on that one. It goes nowhere. Believing that God, angels, demons, Satan, etc are reading your mind sets the stage for real problems. Don’t believe me? How about people who strap bombs to their belt and step on a bus? They’re not doing it to get to the other side of town. Pretty powerful stuff. The Middle East is full of people with a distorted worldview caused by religion.
Through the proliferation of media and information available the world is slowly discovering that there are no real heroes and there never were. In a sense, any one of us could be a hero when we stand up for what is right. And, each of us have things we’re not proud of. We are all alike. That is life. We create supernatural Gods and earthly heroes because we want the comfort of knowing that there might be something greater out there. The Bible is just another book about Gods and heroes created by man. I know that s hard for many to accept. It was hard for me. But you don’t have to go far to find information that previously wasn’t easily available to the average person. The Internet as well as many recent books by reputable authors contains volumes of information slowly uncovering historical errors, inconsistencies and genuine real problems with the Bible as fact. The very existence of Jesus is questionable considering the indisputable fact no contemporary documents mention of him during his presumed lifetime. Don’t believe it? Check it out for yourself. I no longer feel the need to prove anything. If you’re like most Christians you don’t want to find out anyway. It’s too painful. Funny, you’ll believe the Bible completely and on faith but you’re afraid to even consider an indisputable historical fact that might disprove what you believe. See, you’re going believe want you want regardless of reality. Besides the Bible says it’s the truth that’s all you need. No need to go further. Like I mentioned previously - to use the Bible to prove the Bible is an exercise in futility.
I dropped a lifetime of religious beliefs because I’ve come to the point where I know it simply doesn’t work; it’s not a valid way of thinking. To continue would be insanity. The issue is truly settled for me. There’s no turning back. No one is reading my thoughts; no spiritual battle is going on accept that which I personally allow. This conclusion doesn’t solve anything necessarily but it allows one the freedom to start thinking for your self. This is the starting point
To be honest, life is hard, very hard in many cases. I don’t know any thoughtful person that doesn’t what to believe in something greater than our selves. I know of thoughtless people who would kill you in a second if they could get away with it. This comes with being human. I don’t have an answer but I do know that neither Christianity nor any other religion is going to save anybody. There are good people and there are bad people. I don’t have to love or even like everyone. That is absolutely unrealistic. I don’t have to forgive everyone because that is unrealistic also. I know these thoughts aren’t new and I don’t really care. The point is it’s over for me and I’ll never turn back.
Do I think there might be a God. Yes, common sense tells me that all things seem to have a beginning or starting point. Do I think the God of the Bible exists. No. If a God exists do I think he needs or wants me to worship him. No, not anymore than I want my children to worship me. It makes no sense and is silly.
Is there an afterlife? I want to think so. Do I have proof? Absolutely not. People have clinically died on the operating table or during bad car crashes and claim to have left their physical bodies. They have even seen and heard things that would seem impossible if you were dead. Doctors have documented hundreds of cases like this and no one has really explained it adequately. I have talked to people who have some pretty compelling experiences about such things. Does it give me hope? Yes, it does.
The best thing about not being a Christian any longer is the freedom to explore, in a healthy sense, what I really believe or don’t believe. I can walk out the door feeling that I don’t have to view the world in any specific way colored by any religious views. I don’t have to judge people according to Bible standards. I can like or dislike a person based on who or what I think they are. I can feel what I want and think what I want to knowing that God is not judging me. And, I don’t have to justify anything.
When I was a fundamentalist Christian it was the devil I couldn’t get out of my mind. Over thirty years later, as I finally give up Christianity, it’s that Jesus character I can’t get out of my mind. Jesus was supposed to save me from evil. Now, who will save me from Jesus? If you want to believe in evil then evil will be real to you. If you want to believe in a savior then Jesus will be real to you. Therefore, I have concluded it’s all in your mind. There is no eternal struggle except that which you chose to believe or allow in your thoughts. Christians will go through all kinds of mental gymnastics setting up the forces of good against evil, self-righteously using the Bible as their guide but in the end the Bible has no supernatural power to do anything except maybe take your money and make you feel guilty. I’ve decided to no longer let that happen. It took many long hard years to get to this point.
In the end, when all the books are closed and you shut your mouth and sit quietly in a chair and quit defending what you believe or don’t believe, you find reality. Generally, Christians can’t do that. They’re too intent on defending their position, quoting the bible, praying for your lost soul, casting out the devil and other mental gyrations to let reality be a part of their Christian experience. Praying, by the way, now seems more like whining and usually accomplishes nothing except maybe to make you look pious in front of your Christian friends. I no longer pray and feel pretty good about it.
After years of studying, searching, pondering and believing I’ve concluded that Christianity is nothing more than an acceptable form of superstition. Not unlike the belief that if you walk under a ladder or break a mirror you will be subject to bad luck. In the Christian form of superstition the mirror is replaced with the need to be saved from evil and the antidote or remedy is to accept the savior otherwise, risk an eternity in hell or, in the case of breaking a mirror, seven years of bad luck. They’re both the same and both ridiculous and I don’t want to be identified with either. Like the Roseanne Cash song says – “ I don’t want your tired religion, I’m not someone you need to save.” That about sums it up for me now.
I have a problem standing up for myself and when I do there is usually this underlying feeling that maybe I’m wrong or maybe I’ll offend this person. This has never really stopped me but it always seems to undermine my convictions especially in front of people who I intellectually know are not at the same level. It causes a certain insecurity and I’ve dealt with it all my life. In my quieter moments daily conversations and confrontations replay in my head causing endless unseen torment. The realization that Christianity is essentially invalid has, in an unexpected way, helped me cope with this better. This reinforces my understanding that religion is essentially cultural and has deep roots inside all of our motivations. I don’t want to get into a semantic argument about religion vs. a belief in God, as I’m really tired of all those discussions. They go nowhere.
I know more about the Bible than most people and for personal reasons I found myself studying it and researching it far more than I should have. This has caused much pain. Christianity works best when it is applied superficially and that the “peace beyond all understanding” is only attainable that way. To go deeper makes one miserable and judgmental or causes you to intellectualize the whole thing to the point where it becomes useless. The Catholics have turned this into an art form. The typical Christian timeline starts with an energetic, although superficial understanding of Christianity, and along the path you realize it’s not working well so you turn it into an intellectual pursuit and stay in that safe zone until you die or get honest. Most purveyors of the faith unconsciously know this but can’t acknowledge it because it’s painful on many fronts. It’s easier to stay in the intellectual zone rather than be honest. Besides, there’s a lifetime of Bible verses to support your position so why let honesty get in your way? The world is full of theologians, scholars and ministers stuck in the intellectual zone who would rather not jeopardize their status with a little honesty. Using the Bible to prove the Bible seems ridiculous to me now so I’ve decided to give the whole thing up and I feel better for it - really. Having no absolutes is absolutely OK with me.
An interesting footnote in history concerns Mother Theresa. A Catholic nun, recently deceased, she attempted to save the lost and dying in the streets of Calcutta, India with much fanfare. Turns out, she died with virtually no personal belief in Christianity. In very private letters, which she did not want made public, disclosed this to the church’s hierarchy. She had big-time reservations concerning God/Jesus for most of her adult life. But, went on to save the lost anyway because she didn’t have the guts to move on with her life. Besides, people put her saintliness so high on a pedestal she would rather live a lie than admit she might have been wrong about her faith. Don’t get me wrong. Helping people is OK and commendable and a human thing to do. Doing it under the pretense of saving lost souls doesn’t work and must have been pretty depressing. But, as expected, the Catholic Church quickly put their spin on it calling her spiritually void period something “all great saintly people go through”. Then started proceedings to move her into the saintly realm. Her “spiritually void” period lasted for 50 odd years. So much for honesty.
The arguments Christians make to those of us who have moved on usually start by questioning your previous commitment. How do you respond to that? I guess they should know since God is no longer on your side. I lost that one. Another ploy is to start quoting the Bible as if you haven’t heard every verse concerning the lost - over and over. I loose that one too. The final and most insulting stage is the “I’m going to pray for you” stage. Realizing some do have a sincere but misguided interest in your soul but knowing most wish you a lifetime in hell since you are no longer in the club. I usually tell them I appreciate the thought. To them this is final confirmation of my eternally lost soul.
There is no way of knowing but I would venture to say that I’ve heard or read every major Christian sermon know to man on every possible subject from the most simple to the most intellectual. I have pondered, thought and agonized over many of them. I really don’t need another. I’ve had a lifetime of them, in fact, several lifetimes. At this point I start to imagine what a world without religion would be like. Think about it. The implications are staggering since every major conflict has religion at its root. It took years just to get to the point where I would even entertain such a thought. What is striking to me now is the arrogance some people with religion have. Usually proportional to how deep you chose to go or how many people follow your every word. I now view the more prominent Christian personalities completely different than before. The confidence and surety the have is amazing and very compelling. No wonder people will drop their common sense at the door and drink the Kool-Aid.
To me one of the most damaging things about Christianity and probably all other religions is the worldview you develop. Even now, as I no longer want to be identified with Christianity, certain aspects of it still haunt me. It colors every area of your life depending on how serious you are or were about your beliefs. As a practicing believer it gives you a smugness that only you and your group have the truth. All others are suspect. Usually there’s an interrogation period when a newcomer happens to cross your path and you blow it as you set up the you against me defense system. A great way to meet new people. The worldview that is equally bad is the thought that there’s a battle going on all around and your mind happens to be the battlefield. The war of good against evil is going on – right in your head! This delusion makes for some real distortion and most never return. One part that doesn’t seem to get answered adequately is that if Jesus finished the work on the cross then why is it still going on in my head? You can spend a lot of time on that one. It goes nowhere. Believing that God, angels, demons, Satan, etc are reading your mind sets the stage for real problems. Don’t believe me? How about people who strap bombs to their belt and step on a bus? They’re not doing it to get to the other side of town. Pretty powerful stuff. The Middle East is full of people with a distorted worldview caused by religion.
Through the proliferation of media and information available the world is slowly discovering that there are no real heroes and there never were. In a sense, any one of us could be a hero when we stand up for what is right. And, each of us have things we’re not proud of. We are all alike. That is life. We create supernatural Gods and earthly heroes because we want the comfort of knowing that there might be something greater out there. The Bible is just another book about Gods and heroes created by man. I know that s hard for many to accept. It was hard for me. But you don’t have to go far to find information that previously wasn’t easily available to the average person. The Internet as well as many recent books by reputable authors contains volumes of information slowly uncovering historical errors, inconsistencies and genuine real problems with the Bible as fact. The very existence of Jesus is questionable considering the indisputable fact no contemporary documents mention of him during his presumed lifetime. Don’t believe it? Check it out for yourself. I no longer feel the need to prove anything. If you’re like most Christians you don’t want to find out anyway. It’s too painful. Funny, you’ll believe the Bible completely and on faith but you’re afraid to even consider an indisputable historical fact that might disprove what you believe. See, you’re going believe want you want regardless of reality. Besides the Bible says it’s the truth that’s all you need. No need to go further. Like I mentioned previously - to use the Bible to prove the Bible is an exercise in futility.
I dropped a lifetime of religious beliefs because I’ve come to the point where I know it simply doesn’t work; it’s not a valid way of thinking. To continue would be insanity. The issue is truly settled for me. There’s no turning back. No one is reading my thoughts; no spiritual battle is going on accept that which I personally allow. This conclusion doesn’t solve anything necessarily but it allows one the freedom to start thinking for your self. This is the starting point
To be honest, life is hard, very hard in many cases. I don’t know any thoughtful person that doesn’t what to believe in something greater than our selves. I know of thoughtless people who would kill you in a second if they could get away with it. This comes with being human. I don’t have an answer but I do know that neither Christianity nor any other religion is going to save anybody. There are good people and there are bad people. I don’t have to love or even like everyone. That is absolutely unrealistic. I don’t have to forgive everyone because that is unrealistic also. I know these thoughts aren’t new and I don’t really care. The point is it’s over for me and I’ll never turn back.
Do I think there might be a God. Yes, common sense tells me that all things seem to have a beginning or starting point. Do I think the God of the Bible exists. No. If a God exists do I think he needs or wants me to worship him. No, not anymore than I want my children to worship me. It makes no sense and is silly.
Is there an afterlife? I want to think so. Do I have proof? Absolutely not. People have clinically died on the operating table or during bad car crashes and claim to have left their physical bodies. They have even seen and heard things that would seem impossible if you were dead. Doctors have documented hundreds of cases like this and no one has really explained it adequately. I have talked to people who have some pretty compelling experiences about such things. Does it give me hope? Yes, it does.
The best thing about not being a Christian any longer is the freedom to explore, in a healthy sense, what I really believe or don’t believe. I can walk out the door feeling that I don’t have to view the world in any specific way colored by any religious views. I don’t have to judge people according to Bible standards. I can like or dislike a person based on who or what I think they are. I can feel what I want and think what I want to knowing that God is not judging me. And, I don’t have to justify anything.
Comments
that's not prayer that's reasoning. Placing semantics aside, prayer is a reverent petition or communion made to God; what you are doing is critical thinking, weather you call it prayer or not.
If you want to believe in a savior then Jesus will be real to you.
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Hi James and welcome,
It really does indeed boil down to belief and lots of wishful thinking.
If one wishes hard enough for an invisible sky daddy, then one's mind will find that wished-for god, who then FEELS real.
Once that god starts to feel real, many people then seek additional signs in their human existence, to verify they are justified to believe in this savior.
Folks turn to a savior (jesus) for various personal reasons.
A person may conclude they need a god (jesus) because they feel lonely in their lives or perhaps their fear of death starts to be something they can no longer cope with.
They start to wish for this god they've heard about, to be real.
If this becomes an emotional journey, rather than one from intelligence, the wishful thinking can soon make this needed god in their lives feel very real.
This person feels better when they pray to this god, so they conclude that god must be helping them. They don't realize they are only talking to themselves the whole time, because they get this warm-fuzzy emotional feedback, which they assume has to be god answering them.
So now god feels real to them when they pray so they take the next step.
The act of praying becomes a means to further confirm this god belief.
This normally consist of attributing some result/action to be from god. That seeming god-action is actually nothing more than the believer focusing on what comes to pass, and excusing all the things that failed to occur.
i.e. They concentrate on the 'hits' and ignore all the many 'misses', just as your typical woo-woo believer does with other beliefs of the supernatural.
The whole thing comes down to formulating a conclusion of a god FIRST, then trying to find some evidence to convince oneself this conclusion of a god must be right.
Once they have a taste of this false evidence, they then are sure their god is real and it becomes near impossible to reason with them that their god only exists in their minds.
If one had been brainwashed as a young child into a god belief, then this god easily feels to be part of the normal world around you.
One then see's the world around them through a pair of god-glasses.
One constantly looks for anything that verifies the presence of this god and automatically filters out all the counter evidence of this god.
A person can now pick and choose events that occur and convince themselves that this was god's actions and not just chance alone that was responsible.
For instance, a plane crashes and kills everyone on board except one tiny baby.
Instead of this person seeing the tragedy of those who died, they are delighted that god chose to save this one tiny baby, claiming it's a god miracle and nothing less etc..
For the xtian, god just confirmed his presence to them here.
Someone recovers from an illness and because the xtian had said some prayers to god on behalf of this ill person, then surely their recovery was god's hand at work.
If the person dies instead, then they attribute it to god wanting them in heaven or god works in mysterious ways....yeah right.
A stranger and xtian meet. The stranger makes a statement to the xtian that reveals some seemingly personal knowledge about them.
They might have guessed you have children for instance or that you're married etc..
Instead of seeing this knowledge as something from chance alone, they become sure that god informed this stranger about you instead.
If the stranger had guessed incorrectly, the xtian wouldn't fault god for not having revealed correct knowledge, now would they. So here again, they ignore all the times a stranger guessed wrong and concentrate on the rare times the stranger got it right.
A xtain is thinking about a friend and the phone rings and it's this person on the other end.
Right away, the xtian is sure god told them their friend would be calling and maybe even told the friend to actually make the call to them.
Each time in their lives this occurs, it gets attributed to god, of course.
Of course, the many times they were thinking of this friend and the friend did not call, is quickly forgotten about, again showing the tendency to recall the hits and ignore the many misses.
There is some comedian on the comedy channel (I don't recall his name now) that goes out onto the streets with a camera crew and makes guesses about a stranger he see's.
He then confronts the stranger with these guesses to see how many guesses he got right.
The man has an amazing talent for discerning facts about a stranger.
Now one could say this man has a supernatural talent of ESP and I'm sure many would indeed insist this is the case. He does NOT btw, but he's very good on picking up on tangible things about the person, such as their dress, body language, what they are carrying and so forth.
A more personal example now:
If you go into a major city with skyscrapers, it's very easy to pick out the tourist on the street, as they are the one's looking UP and are walking slowly, while everyone else looks forward and moves along quickly.
Now if you didn't understand the nature of tourist to do this UP looking, then it might seem you had ESP when you could pick them out 'from the bunch'.
So instead of claiming ESP talent, if I instead say that god will tell me who the tourist are and I demonstrate to you that I have this ability, and you already desire to believe in god, then guess what, I just convinced you that god is real.
It's really so EASY to fool someone who already wishes to believe in god, by tricking them with these methods. If you aren't skeptical about faith healings and the 'healed' person insist they were healed to you, then to you this is a confirmation of a god at work.
In this case, you WANT to believe, so you will not look too closely at the results.
So no James, it doesn't surprise me that some folks become certain of this god in their lives. It all begins with a simple WISH and progresses from there into a full blown delusion of a god.
It's ironic how the bible writers were sure to build-in a defence against skeptical folks.
They knew many would want proof and so they very cleverly added passages about "fools" and using one's heart ONLY to find god.
Such passages were meant to shut down one's cognitive thinking and if one then forms a devil being and attributes all reasoning as coming from this devil, you have the perfect formula to fool multitudes of potential god believers.
ATF (Who has learned that blind xtians can't see the forest, for the trees)
I saw an English entertainer (not sure if he was a comedian or a stage magician but I suspect the latter) do the same thing and actually convince a number of "psychics" and "mediums" that he was the real deal. At the end of his show he revealed to the TV audience how he had achieved his success. It was quite ingenious and not beyond understanding for someone with an IQ over 50 which unfortunately excludes most christians ;)
sir fer who can't seem to post under any name except anonymous... :-/
Hey ATF, what that comedian did is known as "cold reading"
----
Hi there sir fer,
Oh Yes, I'm very familiar with cold readings. John Edwards easily comes to mind in the cold reading trickery, although with John, it's sometimes more a 'hot' reading, where he obtains information ahead of time.
James Randi has a lot of information in his books and on his website about cold readings.
Funny thing is so many folks don't realize that this 'talent' of cold readings goes back hundreds of years and is nothing new.
Now as far as the comedian goes, it's not the more commonly known 'cold reading' that he does on this show.
Most cold readings would have one's 'target' right in front of them, and usually you get to speak to them before trying to deliver a magical reading to them.
For those 'artist' who lack this more personal manner of reading someone, they make up for it with a volume of people, such as Edwards does on his TV show by having a huge selection in his audience to pick from.
This comedian/showmen basically walks out onto the streets and someone with him will pick out a random person from the crowd. The person at this point being at a considerable distance from him.
He will then study the person (still at a distance) and try to figure out some things about this person.
e.g. If they are native to the city, if they have kids, if they have an active sex life, if they are single or married and if they are worker-bee's or the more elite.
The crew then walks up to the stranger and informs them about the tv show aspects (off camera) and then he will go through the list of his predictions of them.
Amazingly, he gets quite a few correct, but of course, he gets some flat out wrong to.
This is a case of judging the 'book by the cover' really.
Now if there were some supernatural force behind such readings, I have to wonder why it wouldn't be accurate ALL THE TIME.
Either the force is capable of telling us information, or it is not, one or the other.
I would not buy into a supernatural force like this, that only works part of the time!!
So yes, it is a 'type' of cold reading I suppose, but not really in the same category as is mostly used by hucksters to steal money from folks.
I have no problem with mentalist magicians that perform various forms of mind reading and such, as long as it's made clear to the audience at some point that it's nothing but a trick and for show only.
However, many like Uri Geller go one step further and try to pretend they have some connection to the supernatural world.
(He got caught btw)
Then we had one preacher not long ago, who used his wife offstage to communicate with him via a wireless connection. She would know the info about folks who were in the audience and then transmit that info to him as he walked around.
The target person was made to think that he got his information directly from god about them.
He also was eventually caught in the act.
There are just so MANY hucksters out there looking to rip people off and many of them find easy-pickings in the god-believer crowd, just because if one already believes in one form of something supernatural, it's easy to convince someone of another aspect being also true.
If one wants to make easy (but unethical) money, one merely needs to be good at preaching the bible to those all too willing to hear it. Then if you add in the supernatural element by faking some element of that realm to your believers (ESP, Healings etc.), well, they'll be handing over their paychecks in no time to you.
Something truly needs to be done about these tricksters, both inside and outside of religion.
As I said before, one should have to prove one's 'talent', if one is claiming something extraordinary at work.
ATF (Who has a deep hatred for people who pretend to heal others, especially when the recipient forgoes proper medical care because of their faith in such faith-healings)
Prayer does a similar thing, except that when you come down to it, any new changes take place in your own mind before they really happen
---
Hi eejay,
Hope you're working on your testimonial?
(Hint Hint)
I agree, positive thinking can indeed help us along in life.
Besides the example you gave already, it's easy to see how one might feel better from some ailment if one's mind is 'tuned' to believe it can fix the problem.
If one had a stress headache, it's easy to see how one could 'cure' it with thought.
So prayer itself is probably very soothing to those who see it as a means of communication with some sky daddy. If praying makes one feel relaxed, then it's easy to see why the diminishing stress that is causing the headache, would then cure the headache.
Those who are in pain, would also benefit from such thought processes, which is how those healing preachers obtain their results on stage.
Alas, it's all about chemicals being released in one's own body and as soon as those chemicals fade away, the pain is sure to return.
As we've said a million times here before, if these healers were the real thing, then they should be restoring limbs to those who have lost a leg or arm.
Alas, they NEVER DO, nor will they ever succeed in doing so.
ATF (Who just sent out positive thoughts over the internet, to cure anyone here tonight who happens to have a stress headache...LOL)
Liniasmax (who gets a kick out of ATF's parenthetical outros)
Yes, I am working on my testimony, but haven't found it coming along as easy as I'd hoped. Mainly because I 'suffocated' with fundy stuff during my teens and I'm almost 50 now. A lot of stuff to cover without writing an autobiography. I am thinking of maybe highlighting some of the traumatic episodes and daving some for other discussions. It was a terrible time of my life.
Liniasmax,
Hey bud, I missed ya !!
I'm glad about two things you said.
1. That even though we rarely hear from you, that you still read us all the time
2. I hope my outros don't kick you TOO hard. However, I'm glad they do 'kick' ya, regardless..haha
---
Eejay.
Firstly, would you mind explaining your chosen name of 'eejay' to me...thanks
You said...."Mainly because I 'suffocated' with fundy stuff during my teens and I'm almost 50 now"
While I never became a 'fundy' myself, I did know some fundies in my late teens and early 20's, which would be in the same era you are talking about.
I recall feeling nothing but 'fear' when I was surrounded by fundie believers inside of a fundie church; that I would now and then land up at with some friend or another.
Usually, I landed up there from a promise of hearing a live band playing.
Well, the band was merely the **LURE** to attract the unsuspecting to their church.
I have to admit, these fundies sure did try HARD to convince everyone to come around to their way of thinking.
I don't think they spent much time on me, as even back then I had a habit of asking tough questions, and most times they had no answers of the type that could persuade me.
Something about them made me feel very uneasy. It seemed like they were robots or had been hypnotized, which instilled a fear in me "to get the hell out of dodge".
I guess fundies today would just explain this 'robot' likeness I saw, as being from the holy spirit taking-over their minds?
Okay, fundies wouldn't put it quite THAT way, but you know what I mean...LOL.
Now, I don't think you need to go into all kinds of details in your testimony, especially because it seems calling-up those old memories might not feel so great for you.
I think if I were you, I'd do more of an outline of the highlights you mention.
I'm pretty sure that most of what you went through is common knowledge on this site by now.
That said, I think if any experience(s) you had seem unique, and you feel up to sharing them, they would sure benefit some of the readers here
So write what you feel comfortable writing and perhaps in time, the rest will follow.
I'm also fairly sure that some will ask you questions and maybe that might be a better time to explain certain things, rather than in your testimony itself.
Just a thought there, is all.
ATF (Who wonders where Liniasmax wants to be kicked this time? LOL)
"Now I turned to Jesus and He gave me peace, purpose and hope for my life. It is sad that you could not find them."
Where do you see that he could not find peace, purpose, or hope? I didn't see that in his post.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
I used to be an atheist without any hope or purpose or peace in life. Now I turned to Jesus and He gave me peace, purpose and hope for my life. It is sad that you could not find them
--
I see Deadlyjohnny has returned to haunt us....Oh Joy.
I'm trying to understand what you mean DJ when you state you were an "atheist".
Given we are all atheist at birth and some of stay that way, while others are brainwashed into your deluded religion, should we assume you were the type of atheist that didn't arrive there with real thought, but were one by default instead?
It's very hard for me to believe that anyone who actually took the time to research the 'god issue' and had become an atheist from that research, would suddenly become a sorry xtian.
Heck, I've sure never known anyone who made that decision from their intellect and I have known only ONE in my life experience that did so for emotional reasons.
Let's ask the webmaster and our readers then, shall we.....
How about it webmaster and readers.
Have any of you known an atheist who arrived at that stance with their MINDS, ever to retreat back into the land of xtian-dom????
So tell us Deadly J, under what circumstances did you become an atheist and what truth did you discover that made you conclude you had been wrong?
ATF (Who would need god to come to dinner, to change his mind now)
"Hi James, I feel sorry for you. I used to be an atheist without any hope or purpose or peace in life. Now I turned to Jesus and He gave me peace, purpose and hope for my life."
So you're saying that as an atheist you didn't have a job, no girlfriend, no friends, no hobbies, no family, and no life period, so therefore since you had no significant accomplishments in your own life you felt the need to get an imaginary friend (Crutch) named Jesus because you simply could not hack it in life, and you could not deal with reality, so you needed a crutch for being such a failure in the game of life. Ok, we understand now.
BTW, when I turned to Jesus back in 1993 he gave me nothing more than confusion, false hopes, and he never answered any of my prayers and instead of giving me peace, Jesus allowed more torment to come into my life and I lost everything. Some friend we have in Jesus eh?
DeadlyJohnny Said:
"It is sad that you could not find them"
It's sad that you need a crutch and that you need some imaginary friend to help you feel better about your life. I hate to tell you this Johnny, but you are in for a major disappointment, depending on how out of touch with reality you are.
Chances are that within a year you will be down and out again after Jesus does not answer your prayers.
I was once like you DeadlyJohnny, until Cold Hard Reality woke me up one day and I realized that this hope I had placed in Jesus was nothing more than my imagination which robbed me of many successes that I could've achieved on my own if it had not been for the Jesus cult.
You are in denial DeadlyJohnny. I suggest that you seek out a good secular therapist before this christian cult does any further damage to your mind. Jesus is dead deadlyjohnny. I suggest you find some real friends who are still living today.
"I used to be an atheist without any hope or purpose or peace in life. Now I turned to Jesus and He gave me peace, purpose and hope for my life."
Apparently Jesus hasn't given much of a life considering that you seem to have nothing else better to do with your time but sit on the internet and post biblical garbage.
That's some life Jesus has given you I tell ya.
Life is so much better when it's actually in YOUR hands, isn't it? To be held accountable for your actions? To see the beauty in life? Once you finally break free from the abuses of religion, life is so much better. Glad to hear you made it!
I'm not familiar with any.
Christians say of an "ex-Christian" that he could never have been a "real Christian". Atheists say of an "ex-atheist" that he could never have been a "real atheist".
Hi ou812 and Welcome!
Hi eeejay,
I understand completely about the suffocating fundy stuff and I’m glad you too have made it to the “other side,” to freedom. Being a fairly recent de-convert myself and also close to 50, I think I understand why writing your un-testimony is so difficult at first. I don’t know if this is true for you, but when I first attempted to write my un-testimony, it would go on and on for pages and it would just get away from me. There was just so much there that I hadn’t been aware of or allowed myself to think about and when I began to ponder it all and write, it just poured out of me. I finally just wrote and wrote about it until it became more consolidated in my mind. That’s when I could write something that hit on the most important parts and I could leave a lot of the things that simply just needed to get out of my head for my own personal journal. So, if you are not already, try journaling and a testimony for posting will unfold.
Hi everyone else and happy Sunday morning! Sweet fancy Moses, it’s nice to not be going church today!
"It's very hard for me to believe that anyone who actually took the time to research the 'god issue' and had become an atheist from that research, would suddenly become a sorry xtian."
It doesn't happen my friend without a head injury or some type of onset of mental illness. One of the core messages I spread to all my Christian friends is the fact that once a person becomes an enlightened or well educated atheist, there is absolutely NO way one could ever go back to believing without a personal visit from Jesus H. Christ himself.
Now there are a lot of people who I have seen in which I would call "Lazy Atheists" who find God. These would be people who call themselves atheists without any thought. In my life I went from Lazy Atheist in my teens, to twenty years of tepid God belief, to strong atheist. I became a strong atheist when I obtained mass amounts of information refuting religion.
I will admit that when I was struggling to believe I was scared shitless of the fire and brimstone messages or hard core fundies. Now that I have removed my religion glasses I can see though the bullshit, and just laugh my ass off at them.
Another thing that keeps believers faithful even in the midst of tragedy is the "God is Testing Me" concept." My wife had a cousin loose her non smoking husband to a lung disease at a young age and instead of seeing nature as sometimes cruel and unfair, she truly believes God is testing her.
The other day at work I was taking care of a terminally ill seven year old. She had brain cancer which had spread to her spine. As we moved her to my xray table she winced in pain. As a parent I couldn't imagine the pain this mother was feeling watching her beautiful child suffer. How can any human being believe there is a loving God when this type of thing is allowed to happen?
ATF, eejay just kind of seemed neat as I decided to use the nickname of a favorite longhorn bull that I befriended who has and EJ branded on him. I have a hard time remember screennames, passwords etc, so I picked something that would work for me.
"My wife had a cousin loose her non smoking husband to a lung disease at a young age and instead of seeing nature as sometimes cruel and unfair, she truly believes God is testing her."
God murdered her husband to test her faith? How biblical of him!
Xrayman your last paragraph was somewhat heart breaking. You must have incredible inner strength to deal with what you do on a daily basis.
"Xrayman your last paragraph was somewhat heart breaking. You must have incredible inner strength to deal with what you do on a daily basis."
No I don't have incredible inner stregnth when dealing with children with cancer. I still see the faces of those I have seen suffer and loose their battles over the years. I almost lost it the other day when this little girl's mother was telling her to think of Disneyworld to get through the pain. Obvoiously they were going to give this kid one last trip to Disney. Somehow we(in the healthcare world) manage to grit our teeth and bear it when watching a dying child suffer. That is the best any of us can do.
I've thought a lot about what I'd like to do when I rejoin the working world. I thought about becoming a nurse. But I can't(and don't think I ever could) "handle" the death of a child.
I tip my hat to you sir.
The "God is Testing Me" concept is disgusting - it like a sadistic say-uncle game except this 'game' doesn't have just have you pinned to the ground with a string of drool dangling over your nose.
What kind of pretzel, backwards, head-up-your ass rationalization does someone have to reach to think that a god would use not just your pain but the pain of others to strengthen your commitment to said god? How could anyone think that this is nothing except cruelty?
It also smacks of utter arrogance to think that a god would use someone to test you. That the whole purpose of someone else was to serve as an arc in the love story between you and a god. Sick.
"What kind of pretzel, backwards, head-up-your ass rationalization does someone have to reach to think that a god would use not just your pain but the pain of others to strengthen your commitment to said god? How could anyone think that this is nothing except cruelty?"
Hi Seo,
I agree with what you said to Xrayman.
I've always felt that christianity is all about mind games and manipulation.
It would be interesting to know just how many cases there have been where therapists have had to treat people for the damage that christianity has done to one's life.
Seo Said:
"What kind of pretzel, backwards, head-up-your ass rationalization does someone have to reach to think that a god would use not just your pain but the pain of others to strengthen your commitment to said god? How could anyone think that this is nothing except cruelty?"
Hi Seo,
I agree with what you said to Xrayman.
I've always felt that christianity is all about mind games and manipulation.
It would be interesting to know just how many cases there have been where therapists have had to treat people for the damage that christianity has done to one's life.
Just as in any lifestyle, there are always those who do damage to others. I can say this about atheists, Christians, and people from every frigging religion there is. I find it troubling that people can make generalizations about something by looking at its proponents. For instance, you could never find the true nature of Islam by watching Muslims, the only way to do so is by reading the text. Same for Christianity and even atheism. I know many reasonable atheists and Christians, but people often judge atheism and Christianity as a whole judging on their own experiences. Hence the cries of "stupidity" on both sides.
I believe most of the atheists who are lambasting Christians so much must have had really bad experience or impressions of Christians as a child.
"I believe most of the atheists who are lambasting Christians so much must have had really bad experience or impressions of Christians as a child"
No Roger, Christianity is a sham and it does not work.
You sound just like those same christians who claim that "Your experience was based on what some other christian did or said".
I've been in enough churches and have studied the bible enough to know better. My opinions are based on my own personal dealings with christianity and the bible and the facts are that the bible says on thing, however in real life some things the bible teaches does not work.
i cant say i was ever an 'Atheist' but i have reached many conclusions about my "christianity" by my mind, and by my spirit. But i have retreated time and again back to xtian-dum. Sometimes from lonlyness, sometimes form desire to share all the stuff i learned "spiritaully" outside the faith.
But each time i had gone back to the church i have to learn the sad realisation that thsoe people dont want to learn to be better humans, they dont want to learn to meditate and love good human qualities. they want to hero worship and speak of the sweet by and by.
SO my misguided staunts with the church always end with an emotional retreat to all my familiier atheist websites. But with both my mind and spirit i cant take up a postiion of non-belief.
So where i can exist? I live in a place of redefineing, perhaps. Not really. I am growing into a place where the lable of my belifes is divorced from either christian or atheist. And where i dont ahve to belive in any particular things simply because that what that labled group believes. it All boils down to what i think, what i reason, what i experience, and what i chose.
i chose not to conform to anyone. And if i must keep flipping back and forth for a while i need to accept that about myself.
but i can not be "Atheist" i am simply not. and i cannot be Chrisitan, my idea of god is much bigger.
dont know how that blurb fits in but i threw it out there.
laters.....
(good on you James, i wish you freedom and ever increaseing wisdom. You seem possessed of a powerfull insightfull intellect. and I pray for your understanding of people to serve you well and keep you wise.)
izm
If the theory of "you believe what you want to believe,"is true, than that goes both ways. If you want to believe that Christianity is untrue than you will, if you want to believe that Christianity is true than you will. If this theory is true it still doesnt change the fact that their is a Truth. One side has to be wrong.
If you are a member of this site then open your self up, check out www.christiananswers.net. Remember that the people on this site would never say something that proved the Bible right and the other site will never say anything to prove it wrong. Its called biasness. www.christiananswers.net has scientific and achaelogical back up for the Christian faith along with testimonials. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.
I went through struggles in my faith as well, and God knows my cousin did-his entire family is dead but we took him in and he has become a great Christian man. But I kept my faith throughout the struggles of my life and now my faith is unshakable(I had doubts but they were answered in time. Always remember it takes patience; you can't just suddenly know all the truths in life. Paul says in the Bible that his faith was a learning process.)
If you look for the truth, you WILL find it. Don't be biased, Check out christian sources. Go to a lifeway store and look for testimonials from Christians who have had the most horrible things happen to them and yet they found God or remained Christians through those rough times. Actually do your own research and figure out what Christianity is all about.( Don't just listen to what other people say, their opinions are often biased)
Look up things like that or check out other christian websites. There are a lot of scientists out there that are Christian, alot of arhaelogists who are Christians, and a lot of tortured individuals that are Christians.
The world isn't perfect. Many areas of the Bible talk about how the world is unperfect and rampant with evil. You may believe there is no devil but you can't deny the evil in the world. Look at Africa, Iraq, cults that promote violence, misuse of religion, rape, abuse, cruelty, torture, power hungry people who step all over others, racism, untimely deaths caused by horrible accidents and so forth, heck even supposed christians take part in these things. And we all know that NO ONE IS PERFECT. However, through all of this, Heaven will be perfect and God says that he will reward those who stand strong till the end no matter what, and thats what we should be looking forward too. He even says that He will make a new Earth one day(Isaiah 65: 17-25).
I'm not going to go into all the things in my life that have proved to me that God is true both small things and big things. The bad times have been rough but the good times have been awesome! I love my relationship with God more than anything else in the world. I wish that everyone would accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and enjoy the fulfilling life He gives and the eternal life it provides.
Please don't just go to non-christians and ex-christians to find the answers to lifes mysteries and try to prove the Bible wrong or Christianity wrong. Also go to Christians who try and prove it right. There is a truth and one side has to be wrong. And remember that anyone can know the Bible, heck the Devil knew the scriptures very well when he tempted Jesus in the desert(Matthew Chapter 4); he took verses out of the scriptures and used them OUT OF CONTEXT to decieve Christ.(remind you of christians who try to justify wrong by twisting the Bible to their will?)
Please don't take on an anti-christian viewpoint. Take on a "I want the Truth!" mindset. If you build up this fortress in your mind convincing yourself that chrisitianity is false then you will never open yourself up enough to see that it is true. And if you study the Bible without praying to God about them, then it will do you no good. Sometimes it even takes reading the scriptures a whole bunch of times.
Heres a scripture to read " 1 Corinthians 1-16 and yes those are chapters haha. If you are really serious about finding out the TRUTH then read these chapters and do your research. And check out a church( a good one that cares about everyone and is very welcome to anyone. There are a lot of bad churches out there but even more good ones.) I will pray for everyone who does not know the Lord and is not His. And I will pray for the people that make the site that they would break down their views against God and realize that he does exist and that he has Heaven waiting openly for anyone who will allow Him into their lives. I pray you all come to God one day.
And for those who have been tortured with questions and havent found the answers, don't let you faith suffer. The Truth is out there check out www.christiananswers.net that site has many things that will help you with those questions. It really saved me from doubting my faith. It uses extremely credible sources like scientists, paleontologists( I think thats how you spell it), archaeologists, and personal testimonies. Check it out it can't hurt. I pray for you all as well; stay strong in your faith.
Also read about Joseph in the Bible. 15 years of being sold into slavery, imprisoned, and forgotten. Yet he stayed strong in his faith even though I bet any one of us would have questioned or abandoned God. But he knew that heaven was what God would give! And that is for eternity not just a short lifetime. Oh and by the way he then became the second most powerful man in Egypt.
Also remember that in the Bible it states the characteristics of a christian and one of them is longsuffering. Galations 5:22, Ephesians 4:2, Colossions 1:11, 1 Timothy 1:16, 1 Peter 3:20, 2 Peter 3:15. Longsuffering is expected in this life, but this life is short compared to all eternity my friends.
Faith in Jesus Christ/ God/ Holy Spirit leads to fulfillment and developement of character. I leads to an inner peace and ultimately the best prize-Heaven!
http://christiananswers.net/love/story-f-rape1.html
this is a testimonial from a person who was raped. SHe found that God helped her deal with this horrible evil done to her. read away. why would a person who actually suffered the wrong tell people that God Helped her deal with it and then suggest to others that they go to God for help in these situations??? Shouldnt she be mad at God that he let it happen to her? Shouldnt she abandon God and believe that he doesnt exist?? Interesting perspective. check it out, dont be biased.
Many of us were Christians at some point in our lives, hence the name of the site, "Ex-Christian."
It was a search for real truth the finally drove many of us away from Christianity, myself included. We have been to christiananswers.net and other sites like it, hoping to somehow salvage a belief that we had held for years. In the end, though, truth won out.
Hopefully you will one day take off the Christian blinders you have on and try to see things objectively.
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
Dear young Christian guest,
Let me tell you, you are off to a horrible start. In your very first remarks, you've managed to commit a couple of fallacies. For one, you assume that we "don't want the Truth", simply because we don't agree with what you "believe" is "the truth". Aside from that being arrogant and condescending, that is a type of non-sequitur. You are merely asserting that "A" is true, and everything "non-A", is therefore false. Do you know how many Christians arrogantly waltz in here and simply assert their belief as Universal Truth? Answer: ASS-loads(pun intended)
Anony'-rob continues...If you want to believe that Christianity is untrue [then] you will, if you want to believe that Christianity is true [then] you will. If this theory is true it still doesnt change the fact that [there] is a Truth. One side has to be wrong.
What one wants to believe is up to the individual, yes, however, that says nothing about whether that belief has a referent in reality. What happens if I "want to believe" in the Easter bunny? I have that choice, right? Of course I do, but on the other hand, if I expect others to share this belief, then I need to cough up SOME EVIDENCE.
Further, you set up a false dichotomy when you assume that either "Christianity", or "Atheism", is true. What if one of THOUSANDS of other religions is true? Then you and I are essentially in the same boat...i.e..we are both "non-believers" regarding some other "god", and thus, doomed for that god's purgatory for non-believers.
In other words, you are already an "Atheist" in regards to someone elses "god". 'Follow?
Anony'-rob...If you are a member of this site then open [yourself] up, check out www.christiananswers.net. Remember that the people on this site would never say something that proved the Bible right and the other site will never say anything to prove it wrong. Its called biasness. www.christiananswers.net has scientific and achaelogical back up for the Christian faith along with testimonials. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.
Are you saying that the suggested site isn't exhibiting...::lol::..."biasness"? Good grief, you've got a lot to learn when it comes to objective evidence.
But for now, tell me how "faith" needs "back up"????? The whole premise of "faith" is to believe in lack of evidence.
Anony'-rob...Please don't just go to non-christians and ex-christians to find the answers to lifes mysteries and try to prove the Bible wrong or Christianity wrong. Also go to Christians who try and prove it right.
News flash: Many of us have already spent, likely, more time than you've been alive, hanging around "Christians" who want to prove the bible "right". Many of us know the bible better than most "Christians". Stop presuming to know what we have, and have not, done, regarding Christianity. Okay? Thanks.
Anony'-rob...And remember that anyone can know the Bible, heck the Devil knew the scriptures very well when he tempted Jesus in the desert(Matthew Chapter 4); he took verses out of the scriptures and used them OUT OF CONTEXT to decieve Christ.(remind you of christians who try to justify wrong by twisting the Bible to their will?)
No, but it reminds me that the bible isn't evidence for jack-shit, and that it's astonishing that people still believe that it's contents, especially the claims of the supernatural, have a basis in reality. Do you honestly believe that a horned diabolic angel dressed in a red leotard lives somewhere in the center of the earth, and from there it makes human beings do diabolic things? Do you honestly believe that? If so, then why don't you believe in imps, satyrs, gremlins, and goblins, too, while you're at it??
You state...And we all know that NO ONE IS PERFECT.
But out of that very simplist truth, you state, prior to that, the following:
Many areas of the Bible talk about how the world is unperfect and rampant with evil. You may believe there is no devil but you can't deny the evil in the world. Look at Africa, Iraq, cults that promote violence, misuse of religion, rape, abuse, cruelty, torture, power hungry people who step all over others, racism, untimely deaths caused by horrible accidents and so forth, heck even supposed christians take part in these things.
Really? ALL of THAT is from "people aren't perfect"???? Good grief, you really need to add all that baggage and speculation only to conclude that human beings aren't perfect? I suggest you examine Occam's razor.
Anony'-rob...I'm not going to go into all the things in my life that have proved to me that God is true both small things and big things.
Oooo, gawd...please, and thank you, don't go into the things that proved to YOU that "God is true". 'phew!
However, if you'd like us to believe that "God" exists anywhere outside your head, then yeah, you'll need more than personal testimonies and bare assertion fallacies.
Anony'-rob...Sometimes it even takes reading the scriptures a whole bunch of times.
Oh, I see...kind-of-like if I read "T'was the Night Before Christmas" a "bunch of times", then "Santa" will become "real"?
Anony'-rob...And I will pray for the people that make the site that they would break down their views against God and realize that he does exist and that he has Heaven waiting openly for anyone who will allow Him into their lives.
And likewise, I will carry my lucky rabbit's foot in the hopes that you get it through your thick christian cranium that I've examined the "evidence" for Christianity, and I've found it LACKING. Furthermore, you forget to mention that if we don't accept your biblegod's "offer" to float around in the clouds with "Him" in "Heaven", that "He" will roast in the flames of "Hell". Just so we're clear, I'll have you know that I'd reject that "offer", even if Christianity were true.
Bye now.
Ya, Santa, the Easter Bunny and Daffy Duck also believe in Jebus.
(As he looks for an ancient turntable on which to play his broken record...) Anony, did you catch the name of this blog? We are ex-Christians. That means that we have already been Christians. We already know your Christian arguments, and we’ve found them wanting.
Anonymous wrote: “If you are a member of this site then open your self up, check out www.christiananswers.net.”
Hee, hee! Comic relief eh? I knew you all had a sense of humor in there somewhere.
Anonymous wrote: “Remember that the people on this site would never say something that proved the Bible right and the other site will never say anything to prove it wrong.”
OK, here goes: King David, King Nebuchadrezzar, King Cyrus, King Herod, Pontius Pilate, St. Paul, St. Peter, St. James, and St. John were real people. There really was a temple of Solomon. The temple was destroyed and rebuilt, and then destroyed again, just like it says in the Bible. The ruins of the second temple stand to this day. The “hell” of the gospels is a real place; a valley southwest of the Jerusalem walled city. Jericho was a real city, whose imposing ruins tower not far from Jerusalem. The Armageddon of Revelation is a real place, near the northern border of present-day Israel and the West Bank. The Roman empire that is omnipresent throughout the NT really did exist. The Egyptian empire of the OT was also real.
Your turn.
Anonymous wrote: “Actually do your own research and figure out what Christianity is all about.( Don't just listen to what other people say, their opinions are often biased)”
See above. You have no idea how stupid you sound preaching to the ex-choir, do you?
Anonymous wrote: “There are a lot of scientists out there that are Christian, alot of arhaelogists who are Christians, and a lot of tortured individuals that are Christians.”
Yeah, and…?
Anonymous wrote: “The world isn't perfect.”
Gee, I never noticed. Your point is…?
Anonymous wrote: “Please don't take on an anti-christian viewpoint. Take on a ‘I want the Truth!’ mindset.”
You’ve got me backwards. I believe that Christianity is a falsehood precisely because I sought the truth.
Anonymous wrote: “Also read about Joseph in the Bible.”
Huh? You seriously think that a bunch of ex-Christians don’t already know the story of Joseph? Please stop! You’re killing me! :-D
Anonymous #7873262405129793404 wrote: “This won't get anywhere.
“Christians say of an ‘ex-Christian’ that he could never have been a ‘real Christian’. Atheists say of an ‘ex-atheist’ that he could never have been a ‘real atheist’.”
You are correct, of course. It won’t get anywhere. But no one is saying that an ex-atheist was never a real atheist. Go back and read what was written. I swear some of you Christians have raised misreading to a high art form.
As ATF pointed out, we were all born atheists. Every Christian is an ex-atheist! The question therefore cannot be whether or not an ex-atheist Christian was ever a “real atheist.” The question is whether or not the person had arrived at atheism through reason.
I have done the research for myself and the bible is the most ridiculous book on the face of this Earth that was ever written.
The Christian God (aka) Jesus is nothing more than a Sociopath who preys on the fears of weak minded people. The only real power the Christian God has is strength in numbers.
Without you Christians God can do nothing. He needs humans to carry out his work it seems. Your God needs strength in numbers because he is too weak to do anything by himself. Your God is a complete failure. Matter as fact he is a universal failure, and everything he touches either dies or turns to complete shit. God's timing is always perfect when it comes to fucking everything up. He is all about bloodshed and murder. God is like a mad scientist who has way too much time on his hands, so he creates people so he can entertain himself by using the threats of hell against them if they choose not to believe in his so called son or accept him.
I would compare the Christian God to the Star Trek Fictional TV Characters "Q" from STNG and "Trelane" from the Original Star Trek TV Series Episode, "The Squire of Gothos".
I also believe that if Jesus ever really did exist that he was nothing more than a spiritual con artist who knew how to perform some magical tricks, because he knew people in that time period lived in superstition, and they were stupid and backwards enough to believe in such rubbish.
I compare Jesus to David Koresh and as far as I'm concerned the Roman Soldiers were the ATF who raided the "Gethsemane Garden" (Mount of Olives) which was basically Jesus' Waco Compound from that time period.
It also seems that the only way God could come exist in human form (Jesus) was to rape and violate a virgin woman named Mary. Not only is your God a Sociopath, he is also a pervert, a rapist, and a murderer. God's hands are stained with the blood of millions upon millions of people who he has killed all because of his self-centered will.
Without you christians your God is nothing. Matter as fact he is nothing more than some myth that was made up thousands of years ago by a bunch of dumb old Sheep/Goat Farmers who slept with their sisters
black swede wrote: “I have done the research for myself and the bible is the most ridiculous book on the face of this Earth that was ever written.”
More ridiculous than the Qur’an? Admittedly, I haven’t read enough of the Qur’an to form an opinion myself, but I’ve seen enough exposés on the Internet to know that it’s not quite exemplary.
black swede wrote: “I compare Jesus to David Koresh…”
We have evidence that there was a historical David Koresh. (I know, no analogy is perfect. Yours is pretty good, though.) ;-)
black swede wrote: “It also seems that the only way God could come exist in human form (Jesus) was to rape and violate a virgin woman named Mary.”
As unpleasant as YHWH can be, he did not rape Mary. Mary gave her consent, and as she was betrothed at the time, she was certainly at the age of consent in her cultural setting. Now, adultery, on the other hand…
"Three minor quibbles. Really minor"
Hi Cousin,
Don't worry, I took them that way.
I don't know a whole lot about the "Qur’an", however I must admit that as much as I do not like christians, I feel that Muslims are an even greater threat to this nation.
I also see your other two points. :-)
Here is what you should do:
Go to your church, and speak
from the pulpit stating that you were once an atheist and then found jaysoos. You will be renowned and worshiped by all that hear you. Maybe you could even earn some cash with that story. Hair on ya, man.
But in this website you are only a poor deluded dickhead.
Jesus never existed.
The New Testament itself proves the non-existence of Jesus. The Pauline Epistles (circa 50 A.D.)are representative of first century Christian thought (at least one major sect).
They speak of a heavenly Jesus who never set foot on Earth. There were no references in the Epistles to the 'historic' Jesus later found in the Gospels. Paul never spoke of the Second Coming of Christ - he spoke of the coming of Christ.
Christians didn't begin to believe that there was a historic Jesus until way after the fact, about 80 A.D. when Mark's Gospel was first written. And Mark's Gospel is filled with outright lies:
1) 'Jesus was born in Nazareth.' Nazareth was a field of rocks at the supposed time of Christ and didn't become a town until after the Diaspora (70 A.D.)
2)'Jesus preached in the synagogues in Galilee.' There were no synagogues until after the Diaspora.
3) 'Jesus would return in this generation.' Mark quotes Jesus at least twice saying that the Kingdom of God would come within this generation. Mark lied.
James, a critical study of the New Testament reveals that the whole thing is bogus, a sham.
Jesus never existed.
For further reading:
"Who Wrote the New Testament?" by Burton Mack.
"Gospel Fictions" by Randel Helms
"The Jesus Puzzle" by Earl Doherty
"Jesus Never Existed" by Kenneth Humphrey's
Once you settle the Jesus question once and for all, you'll be much relieved.
"Christians didn't begin to believe that there was a historic Jesus until way after the fact, about 80 A.D"
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Hi Anti',
You make some very valid points here in your comment.
If xtians would only do a little research about the history of their NT bible writings, they would EASILY discover the life of their jesus was as fictional as the Star Wars movies are today .
Xtians hold fast to all the things the bible claims about this son-on-god living on earth, yet there is virtually zero evidence that such a person ever existed.
Isn't it funny, how human nature loves to listen to (and spread) gossip, always has, yet this jesus character got no 'PR' outside the tales of the bible inventors.
Any public figure that does ANYTHING out of the ordinary, easily catches the public's eye and makes the news, so why was this miracle working jesus so ignored by the many historians of his era?
Historians, who had taken the effort to write about so many mundane things from that time period, yet somehow forgot to make mention of such an interesting figurehead, like this bible jesus.
Can some xtian out there PLEASE explain that jesus mystery to me, hmmmmm??
ATF (Who is sure to now here from some fundie, how the Devil destroyed all the jesus evidence outside god's protected bible book)
(if you want to see a picture of Chucky Jesus, to to aol and look up my profile page)